BigBox Dual, autoleveling and Simplify3D?

Discussion in 'Multi-Extrusion' started by UlrichKliegis, Nov 10, 2015.

  1. UlrichKliegis

    UlrichKliegis Well-Known Member

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    Is there a strategy already that solves the issue for autoleveling not quite square-adjusted heatbeds, the dual head of the BigBox and its interaction with simplify 3D?

    Also, I saw in a close up of the BigBox that the building plate is resting on springs. Looking at the possible dimensions of large objects and their weight - at what point do the springs do their job and give in?
     
  2. Mike Kelly

    Mike Kelly Volunteer

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    They removed the springs and replaced them with standoffs but maintain the ability to be adjusted
     
  3. UlrichKliegis

    UlrichKliegis Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, Mike.
     
  4. Sanjay

    Sanjay Administrator
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    With a dual system you do have to put in some effort and ensure that your two nozzles are truly tram, and that your axes are also tram otherwise there is physically no way to compensate for this using software/autolevelling. It takes some tuning to get right, but it's not rocket science and you can get good results pretty quickly. This is part of the reason why the dual is labelled experimental - it requires some user effort to get tuned up just right.
     
  5. UlrichKliegis

    UlrichKliegis Well-Known Member

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    Hi Sanjay, thanks. I am fully aware that I need to add some brain grease to make it like I want it. So, I am grateful that you offered an experimental version.
    Keywords: modification of the nozzle carrier, possibly as a rocker mechanism that moves either of the nozzles out of the way. All reversible, iow, compatible with existing hardware. Then, it can work like a single nozzle device. Find and set ABL parameters for each nozzle before printing, if Marlin allows that.
    Still hoping to learn more about Richrap's magnetic carrier lock.
    BTW - what controller and what firmware can we expect to get? Ramps / Marlin?

    Cheers,
    U:
     
  6. Sanjay

    Sanjay Administrator
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    Hi Ulrich,

    I like all the ideas such as rocking, tool changing, and dual X-axis models - certainly something we want to explore down the line. Something we want to develop with community involvement and feedback. Certainly if only one nozzle is in play then autolevelling can do the rest completely automagically.

    Controller is RUMBA with Marlin, firmware will be on GitHub soon also.

    Cheers,
    Sanjay
     
  7. UlrichKliegis

    UlrichKliegis Well-Known Member

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    Rumba! I have two of them here already driving my Ordbots. Nice controllers, just the quality of the RDD boards I have here (and a friend of mine too) has inifinite headroom for improvement. In the series my friend was beaten with, the USB connector had no ground connection. Mine are also highly senitive vibration / touch sensors. Just the mere thought of touching the USB cable breaks the connection . But I am sure you guys will have made sure we get rock solid hardware. (There is that r-word again...! ;) )

    Do you drive them with 24 volts? 12 volts are a bit weak for the steppers. And make sure you use those little cooling rails on the stepper controllers. I fixed mine with heat conducting epoxy. Is the graphics display included too? Invaluably useful.

    Keep on rolling!

    Cheers,
    U.
     
  8. Sanjay

    Sanjay Administrator
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    I've also heard that the RRD boards have had some manufacturing issues, but I've never had any hands on experience of them. Ours our from a different manufacturer and we'll be flashing/testing every single one before they're sent out so they should be all verified known good instead of just being straight off the manufacturing line. Ours have been solid in the print farm throughout much abuse and run time. We've killed a fair few here and there by doing stupid/experimental stuff and obviously damaging things like dropping stuff on them, but they're solid as any board when treated right.

    We're running them from a 24v power supply with 400w of capacity, (the most powerful we could source) which is loads of headroom for what they're doing as well as having plenty spare wattage for hacks and mods.

    The stepper drivers we're using have much better thermal management than most, which is in large part why we chose them. We're running individual heatsinks atop the chips, because it makes removing and rearranging individual drivers easy. Obviously most of the heat is actually transmitted through the bottom of the chip, and in this driver design there's a lot more copper down there to take heat away. There's a big old fan pointing directly at the electronics too so cooling is very positive.

    Full graphics display with the SD-Card slot is supplied by default fully configured and integrated into the frame design. I was never a fan of them before we started the whole bigbox project, but now I don't know how I'd live without them.
     
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  9. UlrichKliegis

    UlrichKliegis Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, Sanjay,
    so many good news in one post - well, it's the season of the year for good news!

    Cheers,
    U.
     
  10. Brian Dowling

    Brian Dowling Active Member

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    Ok, I'm new to all this, but decided for the dual anyway.

    Can you guys help me understand why this is hard to get things level? With the autolevel, can you use that to sense the table, see where it is off from the gantry and physically adjust until it reads parallel. It almost seems like there could be a leveling calibration process on the lcd that tells you which corner is off and how many turns of the threads on which corner it would take to fix! ;)

    Once that's settled then at this point just adjust the heads with feeler gauges and the build platform?

    Even without the aforementioned magic (though that would be cool) you could do this manually by raising one head, adjusting the other with corners of bed and bring the second back down...

    Am i over simplifying or missing something?

    ...Brian
     
    #10 Brian Dowling, Dec 2, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2015
  11. UlrichKliegis

    UlrichKliegis Well-Known Member

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    Hi Brian,

    You also will have to make sure that the two nozzles are absolutely co-planar with the bed, also after a nozzle change, other changes to the extruder complex, temperature changes (think of the thermal coefficients working on a variety of different materials), wear and tear, ion storms and such... - in short: the reality does not have a complete concept of the theory.

    Add a new cooling fan to the extruder, and you start from scratch. These machines are pretty floppy, not to be compared to the rigid structures of CNC machines for adults...

    Cheers,
    U.
     
    #11 UlrichKliegis, Dec 2, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2015
  12. Tripp

    Tripp Well-Known Member

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    HeLloyd Sanjay. You have some really great replies here. I wanted to somewhat discuss this a little further if it's okay with you. I've definitely been looking into dual extrusion, and it really seems most people almost never use it because of the hassle it brings, but 2 methods seem to be incredible at fixing this.

    These are the moving heads to get one out of the way like the Robox (coupled with their pin system) and the seemingly much easier independent extruders like the Sigma. I definitely think the independent extruders are brilliant because you essentially just need to print out a different mount and make a different drive system. I definitely think the E3D hotend could do this type easily.

    I guess I just wanted some feedback from you on it. If the team could add something like that and market it pretty well, I truly believe it could be game changing. It completely fixes oozing.
     
  13. UlrichKliegis

    UlrichKliegis Well-Known Member

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    Did you see this?
     
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  14. mike01hu

    mike01hu Well-Known Member

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    That looks like a neat solution!

    Mike
     
  15. Miasmictruth

    Miasmictruth Well-Known Member

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    I have seen that extruder setup before on an unfortunately failed either kickstarter or other crowd funding site. The videos of it in action were pretty cool.
     
  16. Sanjay

    Sanjay Administrator
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    I love the dondolo approach, but unfortunately it is very much a copy of the patented stratasys dimension head. If we were to commercialise that we would be opening ourselves up to litigation.

    I am a big fan of the approach in the sigma, which was first done on a bukobot quite some time ago. It has a lot of potential.

    We now have a technique for completely eliminating idle extruder ooze in software, which is great, but it doesn't solve the idle nozzle impacting parts of the print problem.

    I would ideally like to go for a toolchanging approach which gives the advantages of the sigma approach, but with more flexibility, uses one less motor, and could be implemented with quite low complexity.
     
  17. Henry feldman

    Henry feldman Well-Known Member

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    Well once you have that as a BB dual upgrade, I'd buy it!
     

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