E3D Jamming with both ABS and PLA

Discussion in 'E3D-v6 and Lite6' started by docwelch, Apr 19, 2014.

  1. docwelch

    docwelch Member

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    I've had my E3D v. 5 for a month or so but have not been able to get it to reliably print either ABS or PLA. ABS does seem a little more printable but it is certainly not consistent - I have managed to get some small pieces printed in ABS. Usually, the print will go well for several minutes (but sometimes up to an hour) before the jam occurs. I am using good material that prints fine from both a J-head and a Hexagon hotend. I am using a MakerFarm Prusa i3 with a Greg's Wade's direct extruder, 3mm filament, 0.4mm nozzle. I have used both KISSlicer and Slic3r. The fan is on 100% of the time (wired directly to the power supply) and is lined up with the bottom cooling fin. The bottom fin does not feel much, if any, above room temperature. Things I have tried:
    1. PLA printing temps from 185 to 235. ABS printing temps from 230-250.
    2. Different PLA and ABS from another reputable supplier.
    2. Canola oil
    3. Cleaning the hotend out with a pipe cleaner and solvent. Also, there do not seem to be any significant rings from machining in the barrel.
    4. Replaced the brass nozzle.
    5. Retract lengths from 0 to 2 with retract speeds from 5 to 30 mm/s.
    6. Print speeds from 30mm/s to 100mm/s.

    As time has gone on, things seem to be getting worse. I took everything apart and cleaned it all just a couple of days ago and still nothing has improved.

    Any suggestions?
     
  2. Eaglezsoar

    Eaglezsoar Administrator

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    Could you post a picture of your hotend, especially where the nozzle - heat block area is.
     
  3. docwelch

    docwelch Member

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    Here's a picture:
     

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  4. Eaglezsoar

    Eaglezsoar Administrator

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    After viewing the picture, the assembly looks fine.
     
  5. myk68

    myk68 Member

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    Hi,

    sorry to butt in however I have been playing around with the same issue in PLA, havent tried ABS. When I first got the hot end it all seemed ok but as it went on I now cant get a full print to finish before it starts air printing.

    Ive stripped the feeder back and made sure nothing is catching but to no avail. if I manually feed the filament through then its ok. But as it prints its almost like the plastic runs out. then the filament is stripped but if i tighten this down it works again for a few layers. the way it feels is like the back pressure grows and stops the feeder passing more filament through.

    Any ideas?

    Mike
     
  6. Eaglezsoar

    Eaglezsoar Administrator

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  7. docwelch

    docwelch Member

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    Mike,
    That's exactly what happens in my case. I have a Hexagon Hotend and I can physically push the filament through it with my fingers. It, too, has a 0.4mm orifice. On the E3D, I cannot push PLA through once it has started to jam. If left to run, the hobbed bolt will grind a notch in the filament. I have tried running the filament with the pinch roller from just tight enough to move the filament to as tight as I can get it without seeing any real difference in the ability to get through an entire print. I wish you the best on finding an answer.

    Eaglezsoar,
    Thanks for your evaluation of the setup on my machine and for replying to my post!
    I've looked at those posts by MHackney. I guess I just don't believe that it is my job to modify this product to make it work. I realize that 3D printing is not yet just plug-n-play. I've had to experiment to get other hotends to work, but that never entailed having to re-machine something. I keep reading that there are "literally thousands" of these all metal hotends out there printing both PLA and ABS, but I cannot replicate their success. While I could certainly measure and drill out one of the brass nozzles, I do not really believe this is the solution. It does appear that MHackney has been successful in his particular situation; however, you have to consider that I have tried 3 different nozzles without success. If the nozzle is the issue and if there are so many of these hotends out there that print correctly, it's kind of hard to believe that I would have gotten 3 nozzles with the same problem. Given the reasonably high level of machining on the rest of the hotend, I really doubt the tolerances on the nozzles is so great that one will print and another one will not (though anything is possible).
     
  8. mhackney

    mhackney Well-Known Member

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    docwelch, it isn't your job to modify this this product but I am very confident now after printing PLA at seriously fast speeds and low temperatures with the short barrel that there is a significant design or manufacturing flaw. Others are now staring to chime in that this has solved their problems too. It makes sense also when you consider that the Buddaschnozzle, J-Head, SeeMeCNC and several other nozzles that I've collected bore length data for have ALL been in the neighborhood of .5mm.

    I have now discovered that it might be fairly easy to test the nozzle. I knew this before but hadn't correlated it with the problem. Now that I have both modified and unmodified nozzles to test, I have. Here's the test - it is basically the same manual push test you describe:

    Bring your hot end up to PLA temperature (say 185°C). Then, manually push some filament through it. You will observe that it start to flow pretty nicely at first - maybe 100mm extruded length - then you'll feel that it starts taking more and more pressure to keep it feeding. Stop at this point and wait say 30 seconds. Then do it again. You will feel the same thing - good, low pressure, initial flow then increasing pressure requirement. This is the problem.

    One last thing, the E3D and Kraken hot end design is very sound, that's what attracted me to them, with the SS heat break, no PTFE in the cold/hot transition pathway, etc. I truly believe that this one slight issue with the nozzle, one that is easily rectified, is responsible for the vast majority of the PLA starving problems we've seen reported.

    The other thing to keep in mind is that most people are not pushing their machines on every print. I had many weeks of getting good prints from the E3D just to have filament starving creep in again when I started printing a little more troublesome print, perhaps at higher speed, etc. It is also a complicated system and several of the other parameters may in fact be able to compensate for the long bore. But fix that and the hot end extrudes PLA like butter and I'm now getting the best prints I've done with ANY hot end (and I've tried nearly all of them) and I print 6+ hours a day.

    I had 5 E3D .4mm nozzles. EVERY ONE of them had a 2mm bore. Not one of the 15 data points I've now received from others has had a bore under 1mm. Some were even as high as 3mm! There is something fishy going on here and I hope the guys pipe in at some point. I've sent them several emails describing my research and results. 15 nozzles from all over the world have had bores much longer than other hot ends. The design spec for this length is not published so we don't know if it is a design issue or a manufacturing tolerance issue but I do believe simply shortening the bore to .5mm eliminates a significant variable.

    I posted a video of my results here

    I don't know what else I can say or do until more and more folks chime in with their results both for measured initial bore length and effect after shortening to .5mm. I have swapped several nozzles with users here in the US via mail and those should be arriving this week. Both of these users gave up on PLA with the E3D. I am waiting anxiously for their results with the shortened bore.

    Regards,
    Michael
     
  9. myk68

    myk68 Member

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    Hi Michael

    One thing more you could mention is where I can get a .5mm bore .4mm nozzel from? I dont have the tools to do this myself so would need to order one from somewhere to try this out.
     
  10. docwelch

    docwelch Member

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    Just for the heck of it, I heated the tip, pushed in some PLA, cooled the tip, cut off the extruded PLA with a razor blade, and pulled out the PLA as mhackney has described. The picture tells the story. The bore is about 2.5mm in length.
     

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  11. mhackney

    mhackney Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the data docwelch, I had a few more PMs and emails today with additional reports of "long bores" and a couple of owners drilled theirs as I described and are now getting good PLA printing results. I really hope this turns out to be a root cause so it can be easily fixed!

    cheers,
    Michael
     
  12. docwelch

    docwelch Member

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    Michael,
    I have carefully drilled into the nozzle about 1.5-2mm. I am waiting to receive my 0.4mm bit to re-drill the opening (should arrive tomorrow). I will let you know the results.

    I would sure like to know what the tolerances are on the production line for this part. It is still hard for me to believe that there are "literally thousands" of these nozzles out there that have a bore short enough to print given my 3 nozzles that won't print.
     
  13. breaker184

    breaker184 New Member

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    Okay but for real tho, I dont know if my printer is playing a joke on me but its printing abs just fine but being that i have a printrbot simple i dont have a hotbed so it warps. Answer me this how does it print at 240 degrees but cant melt pla at 198 or 240? Love the E3d hotend when it did print pla but it bafffles me that even now it wont print that older material even. Ugh..... help....
     
  14. AndersE

    AndersE Active Member

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    I also have this problem with jams after a while, so i am following this thread.
     
  15. mhackney

    mhackney Well-Known Member

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    breaker184, ABS does not seem to be a problem with the longer bore nozzles. I printed ABS at breakneck speeds with no issues. The fluid flow properties of ABS are very different to PLA.

    AndersE - could you measure your bore length to add data to the pot please?
     
  16. JuanG_v

    JuanG_v Member

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    The problem is that this hole has disappeared.

    Image (sin titulo)

    The nozzle temperature is not correct. I had the same problem with the thermistor placed in that position.
    I had another e3d v5 with that hole. I use the same body and just change that piece, place the thermistor with the same nozzle and all in the position of that hole.

    thermistor is far from the nozzle.

    Problem solved.

    I teach courses mounting prusa i3, I have assembled 15 e3d with hole and perfect, since I bought the last 20 e3d without that hole, 20 have given failure jamming with different extruders.

    if I take 10 of the last 20 e3d and I put the thermistor in that position (with this piece) all work and no problems.

    Sorry for my english! :)
     

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  17. AndersE

    AndersE Active Member

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    I measured my 0.4 (3mm) nozzle and it was about 2mm.
    Now i have drilled it to ca 1mm and it seems to have helped (knock on wood)..
    We'll see tomorrow how it did, i have a print going this night that always got only about 10 layers into
    the print.
     
  18. docwelch

    docwelch Member

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    Having shortened the bore to a little less than 1mm and redrilled the 0.4mm hole in the nozzle, I printed a PLA part without any signs of jamming. I have another part that has a lot of retractions I want to try before claiming victory but it certainly appears I have at least made progress.
     
  19. Eaglezsoar

    Eaglezsoar Administrator

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    I am glad that you have made progress on printing with PLA.
     
  20. docwelch

    docwelch Member

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    I am 1.5 hours (33%) into a print with 15-20 retracts per layer. So far, no signs of jamming at all.
     

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