E3D v5 All Metal w/Direct Pinch skipping/clicking problem

Discussion in 'E3D-v6 and Lite6' started by AlexC, Mar 25, 2014.

  1. AlexC

    AlexC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2014
    Messages:
    46
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: E3D v5 All Metal w/Direct Pinch skipping/clicking proble

    BD that does not look quite as bad, i do see some roughness from the drill bit that might effect the PLAs adhesion a bit (maybe just polish it with some ss polish?), but i don't see any actual hard ledges on yours, at least not at that angle/perspective.

    The microscope that i use is the f-cam digital microscope Model # MAN1011 Its not a "lab" microscope but more of a machinists best friend for looking at small details. i think its a discontinued model as it was priced at ~$60 way back when, but amazon seems to have one or two copies available at a "you cant get this anymore" price of $120

    http://www.amazon.com/QVS-2-Megapixel-D ... microscope

    I suspect this one,.
    http://www.amazon.com/Celestron-Deluxe- ... microscope
    or this one
    http://www.amazon.com/Plugable-Digital- ... microscope
    to be fairly similar.

    though i do really like how you can stick things into the lens shroud on the one i have. I am not 100% sure you can do that with the others.

    best way i have found so far to set it up for looking down a filament barrel is,.


    set it up with the microscope on its holder, and the barrel held by a "helping hands roach clip" then stick the barrel all the way inside the microscope,. the LEDS on the microscope will no longer be helpfull,. so then,...


    point the end of the barrel at your monitor, and open a blank text document (for its bright white background) to shine a soft light down the barrel. then just adjust focus to slide down the barrel.

    e3D if this ends up being the actual issue,. you could ad this inspection of the inner barrel as part of your quality control practices,. it only takes about 10-20 seconds to inspect the length of a single barrel this way. and if you made a sturdier rig to hold things firmer, i suspect you could shave a few more seconds off that.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. AlexC

    AlexC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2014
    Messages:
    46
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: E3D v5 All Metal w/Direct Pinch skipping/clicking proble

    ok,. so the MEEK soak worked wonders on the stuck on black stuff,. and a natural cotton pipe cleaner soaked in more MEEK rubbed off the little bit that was still there this morning. (DO NOT USE CHEEP PIPE CLEANERS WITH MEEK THEY COULD POTENTIALLY DISSOLVE)



    Unfortunately the multiple hard ledges within the surface of the barrel are still very much there, and even easier to see now. in total i count 5, two of which are particularly bad,.




    I re-shot the video with the clean barrel, i stopped at each individual ledge for a moment to get it in focus,. sorry for the shakyness, its hard to hold this perfectly steady while turning the focus ring. by the time i had moved down to ledge #5 i was starting to loos alignment so you just get a glimpse of #5 at the end,. Ledge # 4 is the worst one, where allot of the plastic build up was yesterday, the second worst, where i also found stuff stuck, was on and between #1 and #2.

    I was able to compress the file so i think this link should work,.
    http://www.alexcphoto.com/Stuff/CleanBarrel.mp4
    (since i don't have unlimited bandwidth i will likely come back and delete this link once this is resolved)
     

    Attached Files:

  3. AlexC

    AlexC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2014
    Messages:
    46
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: E3D v5 All Metal w/Direct Pinch skipping/clicking proble

    Oh, while i am on the topic of the microscope,. it has come in handy multiple times with 3D printing,. iv used it on prints to help calibrate,. and also its great for troubleshooting clogged nozzles,. take a look here, that little tiny stuck on bit caused me about a week of hair pulling,. couldn't see it with the naked eye, but with this little gadget,..
     

    Attached Files:

  4. BillyL

    BillyL Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2014
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: E3D v5 All Metal w/Direct Pinch skipping/clicking proble

    I've only had my E3D v5 for a couple of days, and it now has a nice chunk of ABS filament solidly wedged inside of it. I get the feeling these hard ledges could be the cause of my problem as well. (I followed the assembly guide exactly, raised to 290 and tighten, fan connected directly to 12V, etc. so I think I can rule that out)

    I'm new to 3D printing and I've had a lot of fun and no problems printing both PLA and ABS with a cheap J-head knockoff, which many warned would plague me with problems. So when the clog occurred with my E3D I thought it would be simple to clear. Now my E3D has a number of scratches from the failed attempts, and is finally about to take an acetone bath.

    For such a premium price ($125 AUD) I wasn't expecting to get problems that many associate with a cheap J-head knockoff. The additional 0.6mm nozzle I ordered wasn't even drilled all the way through, and what was drilled was off-center.
     
  5. AlexC

    AlexC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2014
    Messages:
    46
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: E3D v5 All Metal w/Direct Pinch skipping/clicking proble

    OK back to "Seasoning" i deviated in one area,. when i screwed the heat break into the aluminum heatsink,. i added a very, very small dab or thermal grease (not thermal paste there's a difference) just enugh to increase the heat transference from the heat break to the heatsink,. and only enugh to put a very thin coat on the bottom 1/3 of the shaft (i didn't want it getting to close to the top and possibly getting into the print feed) my logic was since my heatsink was not heating up at all,. maybe we needed to give it a little more to do,. After dabbing it as seen in the photo i then screwed it back and forth a bit to get it spread out, and finished assembly.


    My big taz is still hard at work,. so i decided to install the e3D onto my PrintrBot,. don't laugh to much,. the printrbot LC with its super short belts (near 0 backlash) is one of the finest printers out there, well, once you upgrade some of the wooden bits that warp, which iv done =). Same extruder,be cause it works,. however this set up has a slightly stronger motor so hoping that helps a bit even though i really want this hotend running on the Taz not this bot. (this bot does just fine with its stock UBIS.) while small in stature, its rock solid at this point for testing things on (90% of the taz was printed on it).


    I picked up Winona Pure 100% canola Oil,. ingredients on the back,.. "canola oil". I figured having it in spray can form would work well with keeping it on a shelf with the rest of my 3d printings stuff,. just make sure to look at ingredients, many of the spray ones have all sorts of stuff added. anyway squirted a bit in a cup and dipped in the filament,. i probably added to much with about 20mm of coated filament, but i did shake the drips off before inserting :lol: .
     

    Attached Files:

    • 1.jpg
      1.jpg
      File size:
      180.6 KB
      Views:
      2,154
    • 2.jpg
      2.jpg
      File size:
      205.8 KB
      Views:
      2,154
    • 3.jpg
      3.jpg
      File size:
      163.7 KB
      Views:
      2,154
  6. AlexC

    AlexC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2014
    Messages:
    46
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: E3D v5 All Metal w/Direct Pinch skipping/clicking proble

    I inserted the oiled filament and then pushed till i saw very glossy filament come out,. at that point i new the the oil had reached 100% of the shaft. I then let the hotend cool completely to solidify the oiled filament,. then i heated it back up, and right as it reached 140 i gave it a little tug,. at this point is where the outer surface of the filament is just starting to soften, but the inside is still solid,. give it a tug, and everything should come out as one solid piece some times if i do this perfectly you can even see the indent from the nozzle on the end of the filament still, it did "yay". so then i was fairly sure the entire shaft including nozzle was for the most part clear of everything but oil.. I cranked it up to 180 for 4 min, then 190 for ~4min, then just to be sure gave it 2 min at 195, and another 2 min at 200,.. a little over what was recommended, but i wanted to make sure i got it baked in.



    And let me tell you i way over oiled,. 50mm to clear,. nope,. more like 1500mm to clear, the good thing though is you can tell the filament is "oiled" due to its extra clear sheen as it extrudes. but even after that the first few prints failed due to surface adhesion,. then the next few failed due to layer to layer adhesion,. for all that i blame the oil working its way out of the system.



    Then I had a bunch of prints that i thought where working but failed,. maybe still oil,..

    After about a duzen prints i got this white one to print from top to bottom,. Unfortunately i had voids print on multiple layers (layers marked with red dots) wich effected the print quality badly, it never failed completely, i could tell it was moving a little easier, but it is now starting to skip beats again,. as a side by side comparison, the blue calibration piece was printed yesterday on this printrbot with its UBIS hot end.



    I am running out of time for today,. but im going to throw one more larger print at it, and post its results a little later this eve,. then likely more tomorrow,.
     

    Attached Files:

    • 4.jpg
      4.jpg
      File size:
      132.7 KB
      Views:
      2,155
    • 5.jpg
      5.jpg
      File size:
      147.3 KB
      Views:
      2,155
    • 6.jpg
      6.jpg
      File size:
      117.2 KB
      Views:
      2,155
  7. AlexC

    AlexC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2014
    Messages:
    46
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: E3D v5 All Metal w/Direct Pinch skipping/clicking proble

    ABS really should not have the same getting stuck problem as PLA,.. its just not sticky like PLA is it can flow and warp around obstructions quite easily,. Do you have a multimeter with a thermocouple to test your hot ends true temp,. my first thought with an ABS jam would be your not getting hot enough,.. my second thought would be you actually have something in the feed path, shaft, or nozzle that's an actual particle blockage of some sort (cheep filament?). For that try what i said a post or two above,. cool hot end, then heat it up,... with ABS,. to about 190, tug gently at it from 150 upwards,. at some point between 160 to 190 it should start to move a little,. then really pull,. If you time it just right it should all come out as one chunk. it does take practice, and the perfect temp to tug at will be printer dependent.. then break off the bad and put in fresh,.

    silly question probably, but you have cleaned the teeth of your hobbed bolt (or hobbed pulley)?

    j-heads are simply a form factor,. with many, many individuals cranking them out, & adding there own tweaks to the design (some good some bad). every individual has different levels of precision in there machining process,. thus every j-head is a little different unless you order just form one supplier, and even still some don't sustain there initial quality levels. some suppliers are excellent at what they do and you get a good j-head,. others are barely capable of machining, or deviate from spec a little to much, and you get constant issues,. its not the j-head design that's at fault there really,. its random quality control from different machinists. aka there are good j-heads out there, and some of them even come from china,. :lol: but unless you know a good source it is a bit of Russian roulette with them at first.

    As for e3D, I suspect that they just had a drill bit go bad, and didn't catch it, or a new machinist cut a corner or two to get out early on Friday, or simply one that didn't know the ramifications of not making one single clean plunge into the metal (you really don't want to double dip the bit on a part like this), or a step was skipped in a batch by accident,. etc,. letting a handful of defective heartbreaks escape their lab,. (ever try to drill a hole in thick stainless? its a @#*%@). So far they have given me no reason to think that they wont work with us to fix the problem,. so give them a chance to figure this out and fix it (i think we are getting close here with the documented rough spots inside the shaft), before you get to mad just yet,. defects happen, what matters most is how the company responds to the defects,...

    3D printing, its not a destination, its a journey. <-- my new tag line,. :lol:
     
  8. BillyL

    BillyL Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2014
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: E3D v5 All Metal w/Direct Pinch skipping/clicking proble

    I had tried this before, and the "tail" eventually just snapped off, suggesting the jam was not in the heater block. I heated the E3D up and disassembled it to reveal that the filament had somehow jammed inside the heatbreak, and a soak in acetone softened it up enough for me to wiggle it out.

    Considering what you said about ABS not usually jamming, I'm hoping the jam was just a freak accident and that it won't happen again. The inside of my heat break doesn't seem to have visible ledges. And yes, I do regularly clean the teeth of my hobbed bolt at every jam and filament change/re-feed, I've gotten used to that.

    I'd still like a properly made 0.6mm nozzle to help speed up some larger prints I have in mind, but that's kind-of off topic here, unless you consider that it's also a mistake on the machinist's part.

    Definitely a journey :p.
     
  9. Josh

    Josh Administrator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2014
    Messages:
    183
    Likes Received:
    38
    Re: E3D v5 All Metal w/Direct Pinch skipping/clicking proble

    Alex - your new tagline has a great deal of truth in it! Suggest as signature? :cool:

    Thanks again for your fantastically detailed accounts of your experience. The photos of your cleaned heat-break do show these ridges very clearly, so I would be keen to get the heat-break back so we can investigate how this happened on the machining side. I will FedEx you a replacement heat-break first thing on Monday, and when you get this, if you send back your faulty heat-break, I will refund your shipping costs.

    With regards to to the photo posted by BadDevices, this surface finish is normal, we put a lot of thought into achieving a good result in this regard since we understand the importance. I have received your email, Stefano and Christian and will get back to you guys on Monday. :)

    Billy, can you maybe email me a photo of your nozzle with a description of what you have done to it? Send to josh@e3d-online.com, and I will look into it for you. The way they are machined makes it almost impossible for this to happen, so it does come as a big surprise.

    Regarding your ABS issue; if you have filament stuck in the upper-half of your heat-break, this implies a possible cooling issue. Maybe the HotEnd was left to heat up with the fan off? That would cause plastic to melt and adhere to the walls areas that will then be cooled when the fan is on. I am keen not to get into it too much here because this thread is already getting quite complicated! If you still have troubles after the acetone bath, post a new thread. :)

    Cheers all,
    Josh
     
  10. BadDevices

    BadDevices Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2014
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: E3D v5 All Metal w/Direct Pinch skipping/clicking proble

    Alex, thanks for the link to the microscope, at the moment I'm using a veeeery cheap (5€) magnifying glass, but I think that can be a useful tool that I can buy in the future to analyze parts and also prints :D

    Yesterday we had tried the "baking" process by seasoning the two hotends actually installed on our prototype. We used Olive Oil (Here in itlay it's more easy to find that canola oil) but I think it can be good.
    We put the head at 200 °C and dip about 30 mm of filament in oil and then push by hand; extrude a bit and then retract, wait a minute and then push a lot of fresh filament by hand and with the feeder.
    As a sensation the clicking noise on the feeder is not completely gone, probably a little bit reduced.
    Then we made a couple of print of about one hour and one hour and half and it seems works, but we need more prints to be sure that the seasoning works for us. In the evening we make a couple of prints with ABS and no problem.
    Today we think to go again with testing and printing with PLA.

    Josh, thank you very much for your reply, our heatbreak is not as badly damaged as Alex's one, and this is one never used, so if you confirm that this is the normal finish this can be another option to assemble this head and make some testing. We were probably unlucky with the other three. Anyway keep up with the good work :) we keep informed about our testing on the "problematic" hotends.
     
  11. mhackney

    mhackney Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2014
    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    11
    Re: E3D v5 All Metal w/Direct Pinch skipping/clicking proble

     
  12. AlexC

    AlexC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2014
    Messages:
    46
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: E3D v5 All Metal w/Direct Pinch skipping/clicking proble

    Thanks, Sounds like a plan; I have no problem shipping this heat break back to you.

    This morning I am continuing to print, and things have gotten a little bit better, but it’s still on and off printing voids. no 100% jam up so far, so that is an improvement, but I can watch it starting to stall, and the extrusion gets thin, almost stops,... and then it releases,. But unfortunately that's just enough for that layer to get messed up with semi-void or weak layer adhesion, or if it happens at an overhang/bridge the print is toast, So it has improved things a bit, to the point of almost removing the issue for me, but not completely, I think this one barrel is a bit too rough inside even with the aid of seasoning. I was skeptical about seasoning,. But it does seem to have affected things positively, and I suspect would work for many who have less rough barrels.

    Just note that a little oil goes a long,… Long way, and you may also need to push a few prints out before it starts to work.

    At this point my best guess is that varying surface smoothness inside the barrel from batch to batch is the root cause of the PLA jamming problem, and "seasoning" can potentially reduce the symptoms associated with it, dependent on the roughness of the individual barrel, but in some sever cases “seasoning” alone may not be enough to completely eliminate all of the symptoms.

    I am actually going to try the seasoning process on one of my other hotends that has a similar, but less frequent locking up issue,.

    Anyway, eagerly awaiting the replacement :D
     
  13. AlexC

    AlexC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2014
    Messages:
    46
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: E3D v5 All Metal w/Direct Pinch skipping/clicking proble

    err,.. not sure,. the scrapes are from an exact-o-knife trying to remove plastic to find the problem,. the tinny little black clog on the lower left of the nozzle hole(what i was talking about) was just a bit of hardened/charred plastic, inside the nozzle hole, that needed to be physically knocked off to get things feeding correctly again.

    I'v found all sorts of things in my nozzles,. a little wad of paper, bits of PTFE, a grain of sand, paint chip, etc,. but the largest, oddest thing iv found blocking my feed path so far,.. a seed,. yup a seed,. small little seed like a tomato seed. :?
     
  14. Josh

    Josh Administrator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2014
    Messages:
    183
    Likes Received:
    38
    Re: E3D v5 All Metal w/Direct Pinch skipping/clicking proble

    OK! So I think we have reached the bottom of this. It seems you have been experiencing two separate issues. The seasoning has solved one half of it, and the other half is caused by a rare manufacturing defect.

    Although the need for people to perform this operation on their heat-breaks seems to be very low, we are going to look into ways of reducing this to zero. I have a suspicion that it may have something to do with the detergent that we use to clean the machining lubricants used off the heat-breaks.

    I will email you the tracking number for your heatbreak in the next couple of hours, I would really appreciate it if you would keep us posted on how you get on with the replacement.

    Just so I can start to gather a bit more data on the issue, can anyone experiencing this issue let me know what PLA they are using?
     
  15. BillyL

    BillyL Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2014
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: E3D v5 All Metal w/Direct Pinch skipping/clicking proble

    I have done nothing to it, the 0.6 mm nozzle is still brand new. This is only the second time I've taken it out of the packaging; I've been printing with the default 0.4mm one.
    I'm about to send the email off now, but I thought I'd post this small image for anyone in this thread that's interested. Hopefully you can see that the nozzle is not exactly where it should be...
     

    Attached Files:

  16. BadDevices

    BadDevices Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2014
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: E3D v5 All Metal w/Direct Pinch skipping/clicking proble

    Hi Josh, we experimenting with the following PLA:

    - RepRapWorld:
    This is the one that present the most of the problems, the first time we see the problem is with grey, but also black and white, we had not tried a lot the other color to avoid introduce too much variables in the test, so I'm not able to say absolutely that other color does not have this problem

    - RepRap.me:
    The green filament (the "nuclear green" that we use for some part of the printer, that is more translucent) gives less problem, but we have only this color for a while. So we decide to buy some other colors because, at the first instance, we think that the issue was caused by the previous filament manufacturer (reprapworld), but at the first try with the brown PLA from RepRap.me the problem arise again and in the same way, so we exlude, after this experiment, that can be material related.

    All the filament is 1.75mm beacuse all the hotend that we had are 1.75mm.
    Hope this can help in your investigation :)
     
  17. AlexC

    AlexC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2014
    Messages:
    46
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: E3D v5 All Metal w/Direct Pinch skipping/clicking proble

    N/P just got the e-mail, thank you! and ill be certain to post how things go with the replacement, and do some nice pics of finished prints once we get this thing working,. Actually i did get one small perfect print out yesterday,. then it went back to having on and off again troubles,. ill post that one in a few,.

    As for PLA, I am still on my easy stuff with this hotend,. printrbot natural PLA,. its the easiest stuff to print with, it bridges exceptionally well, and it has surprisingly consistent diameters for 30$ a spool, so its where i start calibrations on a new configuration,. i generally don't move on to higher end, or lower end filaments till I know this one is tuned in. only problem with it is their spooling process sucks (they re-spool from larger spools) and sometimes you get a spool with a crossover tangle or two,. but then you don't see that again for a few spools,. (so i generally don't trust this stuff for overnight prints) but for calibration and first gen prototype prints its surprisingly consistent stuff. + its on amazon prime for free shipping.

    I have a ton of other brands i could try, but history has taught me that if i cant get the PB stuff to work there's something wrong with the configuration.
     
  18. AlexC

    AlexC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2014
    Messages:
    46
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: E3D v5 All Metal w/Direct Pinch skipping/clicking proble

    for one brief moment the stars aligned last night and this happened,.


    Not perfect, but ill give that one a 9 out of 10 (little wibble wobble on the edges but that's more bot related than hot end + this is magnified, i didn't notice it till i zoomed in,.( parts only an inch tall),.

    Since you where asking about different filaments, i just tried one of my best colors(Deltamaker), after tightening the belts a bit,..


    Man does this thing print nice,.. right up to the point where it doesn't,. (first full jam since seasoning)
    very eager to get it to do this consistently from beginning to end,..
     

    Attached Files:

  19. AlexC

    AlexC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2014
    Messages:
    46
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: E3D v5 All Metal w/Direct Pinch skipping/clicking proble

    A minimalists attempt to point a very small % of the heatsink air at the heat break,. unfortunately my ABS machine is a bit tied up right now,. so untested,.
     

    Attached Files:

  20. mhackney

    mhackney Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2014
    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    11
    Re: E3D v5 All Metal w/Direct Pinch skipping/clicking proble

    Firstly, a seed! Wow, that is strange to find in a hot end!

    I've spent an inordinate amount of time looking at hot ends and filament paths under microscopes and doing all sorts of testing. I have my E3D working like a charm with PLA and other materials. More on that in a minute. I also have 3 of 4 Kraken hot ends working great. That 4th one was giving me fits for the last week (I just hooked it up a week ago) with filament starving and the occasional stepper "tick, tick, tick" (skipped steps). I pulled it apart multiple times, switched nozzles from the 3 known working hot ends, etc. Then I swapped the heat break to a working hot end and now IT started having intermittent problems. Upon closer inspection and testing, I noticed when I pushed filament through the break with the PTFE Bowden connected that I would get a snag and scraping. I isolated this problem as the sharp edge where the 2mm hole in the heat break begins. I used a 1/8" drill bit and twirled it in my fingers while pushing it in that opening to chamfer the edge of that opening a little. I then used a pipe cleaner covered with metal polish and used an electric drill to "ream" the inside of the 2mm bore to polish it.

    Now let me say, before doing this the prints I got, in addition to having occasional filament starving and skipped steps, also did not look that good. I know this isn't the best photo but you can even see the difference in it. The part on the left was before and the part being printed is after.

    [​IMG]

    The surface finish on the new part is like glass, the old part is blobby, misaligned, etc.

    Hope this helps folks!

    cheers,
    Michael
     

Share This Page