E3D v5 All Metal w/Direct Pinch skipping/clicking problem

Discussion in 'E3D-v6 and Lite6' started by AlexC, Mar 25, 2014.

  1. kpierson

    kpierson New Member

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    Re: E3D v5 All Metal w/Direct Pinch skipping/clicking proble

    After fighting with my machine for the past week this thread got me up and running! While reading through it the thought of "seasoning" my new hot end once a month was enough to convince me to just throw it away and buy a hot end that works. However, as I got towards the end and saw people were having success with drilling the tips out I figured I would give it a shot. After screwing up the first one (they are soft!) I got the second one exactly how I wanted it and was finally able to complete a full print! Hopefully the problem doesn't come back as I have had all I can stand with this "upgrade"!
     
  2. Bondeus

    Bondeus New Member

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    Re: E3D v5 All Metal w/Direct Pinch skipping/clicking proble

    Hi, found this interesting thread and I have run in to the problem of stripping the filament 1.75mm with the E3D V5, 0.40 nozzle, it only worked if running at 225 C, when I measured the nozzle it had an lenght of 1.25 mm, I reduced it to 0.50mm and now I am printing with no stripped filament at 185 C. Many thanks for sharing the information!

    With best regards

    Martin Bondéus
     
  3. pnuu

    pnuu Member

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    Re: E3D v5 All Metal w/Direct Pinch skipping/clicking proble

    Hi,

    Just assembled my printer and made the first test prints on Sunday, and hit the same skipping on E motor with PLA that has been discussed in this thread. Looking at the images AlexC has posted, I decided to disassemble my v6 hotend and take a look at the insides of the heatbreak. It looked rough! This is clearly a, not perhaps the only, issue causing the skips. I didn't want to modify the nozle or start playing with canola oil, so I took the easiest way and took a 3 mm diameter round file and smoothed the heatbreak (just file "randomly" so that all the walls get similar treatment). Took around 20 minutes to complete while watching TV.

    See the image below for comparison what the heatbreak looked like when I got it, and what it looks like now.

    I've now made two small test prints, and got exactly zero skips. I'll report more after the next larger print, maybe tomorrow.


    Panu
     

    Attached Files:

  4. sarge5020

    sarge5020 Member

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    Re: E3D v5 All Metal w/Direct Pinch skipping/clicking proble

    I've been reading this threat with great interest. I have not been able to get a decent print since installing the E3D v5. I use ABS all the time and can't seem to get past layer 3 on ANY print before the nozzle plugs. I've played with temperature and speed, I've tried different filaments, anything I could think of to do. My wife did suggest throwing the whole thing in the river but I don't like giving up. I did order a new printer though. Recently I drilled out a .4mm nozzle to .8mm to try Taulman T-Glase. It seemed to work well enough and I'm happy to have some sort of 3D printing victory.
     
  5. elmoret

    elmoret Administrator

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    Re: E3D v5 All Metal w/Direct Pinch skipping/clicking proble

    If drilling the nozzle worked, I'd be led to believe that something was plugging the nozzle. ABS is generally quite easy to extrude.
     
  6. sarge5020

    sarge5020 Member

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    Re: E3D v5 All Metal w/Direct Pinch skipping/clicking proble

    Well, another failed print. I'm trying to print with Taulman T-Glase and it flows great through the .8mm nozzle. I'm very happy but part way through, it clogs, as per normal. I think I'll be taking the whole thing apart. Grrrr. It'll be a great learning experience.
     
  7. jenschr

    jenschr Member

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    Re: E3D v5 All Metal w/Direct Pinch skipping/clicking proble

    Following this thread with great interest as I have the same problem, also with Colorfabb's PHA/PLA mix. Kinda disappointed since I've heard so much good about E3D hot ends. ABS is problem free thus far. I have a Printerbot Jr (Ubis hotend) and an Ultimaker that both prints all materials with ease. My (third) printer was competed recently and has a v5 hotend with the exact problems described here. Thanks so much for researching this so well and coming up with solutions!

    Will try the nozzle mod as well as polishing.
     
  8. jenschr

    jenschr Member

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    Re: E3D v5 All Metal w/Direct Pinch skipping/clicking proble

    Tried the nozzle mod. Gauging the depth was difficult until I realised that I have some resistors in my electronics drawer that are 0.38mm thick on the wires. By holding the drill all the way in and sticking the resistor in through the tip, I could gauge the depth fairly easily. I took it down to half - from 1.2 to 0.7mm. It does affect how easily plastic flows, so I've been able to take my temperatures down a bit.

    However - it does not solve the grinding-problem with my pinch extruder. My "acid test" is this Torture Test STL http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:33902. As soon as I gets past the large, flat area at the bottom the extruder starts to grind and starve. It prints the first few layers of the "9 pipes" and then fails.

    I'd like to try polishing, but can't find cotton pipe cleaner anywhere. I'd very much like some suggestions for alternatives.
     
  9. pnuu

    pnuu Member

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    Re: E3D v5 All Metal w/Direct Pinch skipping/clicking proble

    Hi jenschr,

    I used a metal file (3 mm diameter) to get the ridges out. As the heatbreak is steel, a softer approach will take ages when removing the big ridges. After that I guess a softer material could be used to polish it more.

    And sorry for the late update on my post. Unfortunately the filing didn't completely solve the issue for me. The first print was ok, but the next one jammed after a while. I guess there was more retractions in the later print. There seems to be a slight gap between the heatbreak and the nozzle (no matter how I tighten them), and I guess it's sticking there with retractions. Maybe shorter retractions (or none at all) would be better? I've now moved to print ABS, and there's been no problems with that. But I have to test again later with the PLA, hopefully finding a solution to the jamms.

    Panu
     
  10. Capella_Ben

    Capella_Ben Member

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    Re: E3D v5 All Metal w/Direct Pinch skipping/clicking proble

    I've had weeks of pain and agony trying to sort this out until I came across this thread.

    I have drilled out the nozzle and now the "bore" is 0.46mm long. I tried that and it made no difference at all.

    I polished the inside of the nozzle and the heat break and that didn't help.

    I tried to season using the instructions earlier in the thread and that made no difference.

    I then went at it with a blow torch and a pair of pilers! After disassembling, I heated it up the heat break (a lot) and then used a drill bit to drop some canola oil in. I let it cool then repeated. I then did the same to the nozzle (but was more careful not to heat it up until it glowed like the heatbreak :oops: ).

    I was then actually able to print out something with PLA.

    One thing I did notice is that before I did that when I retracted filament the end was all torn and ripped and weirdly stringy. Afterwards the melted end looked a lot neater. Maybe that is a good way to tell how healthy the hot end is....

    I wonder if the v6 nozzle I have on order will be better than the drilled v5?
     
  11. jenschr

    jenschr Member

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    Re: E3D v5 All Metal w/Direct Pinch skipping/clicking proble

    Thanks for replying guys. I too can confirm that filing the heatbreak and drilling the nozzle has little or no effect. My heatbreak is almost completely smooth, so it's nicely drilled. I have also tried a lot of prints without any retraction and it's the same problem. Just like @AlexC wrote, I'll hear a click or two from the extruder and then it starts skipping. If I'm printing ABS, I'll never have a single problem.

    What I have noticed is that at the very end of the heatbreak, there will be a tiny amount of molten PLA that forms a ridge. If I remove this, I'll print error free for some time, but the problem will always return. I'm testing with @Colorfabb's PLA/PHA filament now. I'll try a bit with pure PLA from Faberdashery next, but my time is really running out. I was going to show this new printer off at a Maker Faire this weekend, and I'm running out of ideas.
     
  12. Capella_Ben

    Capella_Ben Member

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    Re: E3D v5 All Metal w/Direct Pinch skipping/clicking proble

    Same here. I have tried everything suggested here and I still can't print PLA.

    I think I might need to go back to my old extruder. At least it worked some of the time...
     
  13. jenschr

    jenschr Member

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    Re: E3D v5 All Metal w/Direct Pinch skipping/clicking proble

    Ok. I have a suggestion as to what it is that is causing this. Like I said - when cleaning out the heatbreak I have noticed a tiny ridge of PLA at the bottom, near the feeder. Heat will creep up the pipe until it reaches the heatbreak. If hot PLA reaches this area, it can cool off enough to get stuck on the steel. When this happens, the feeder won't be able to push past the ridge. This won't happen with ABS since ABS does not bond to steel in the same way PLA does.

    Sounds plausible, right?

    By adding the printed fan housings that @AlexC posted initially and setting the fan to full speed, I have been able to cool down the transition between heater block and heatbreak enough that PLA does not get stuck. I'll need to tweak the original design to let even more air through, but I'm 99% sure that this is what happens.

    I'm leaving for Maker Faire (in Trondheim, Norway) tomorrow. Can anyone test and confirm this? I don't think I'll able to do much testing while there.

    J
     
  14. Capella_Ben

    Capella_Ben Member

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    Re: E3D v5 All Metal w/Direct Pinch skipping/clicking proble

    So in a last ditch attempt I created a cooling duct for the heatbreak. The blue thing next to the fan.

    [​IMG]

    Using the tried and true feather technique I can see that there is good air flow across the heatbreak.

    About 10 minutes into the first print and it failed again.

    So I have:
    * Reduced the "bore" length to 0.46mm
    * Seasoned the heatbreak and nozzle using a variety of techniques
    * Added cooling to the heatbreak
    * Used short and slow retractions (2mm @ 20mm/s)

    None of these things have made any difference. I still seem to get the same problem. The PLA get too hard to push through.

    I don't like to admit defeat, but there is not much else to do. Maybe I can file out the inside of the heatbreak, but it is a bit more difficult with a 2mm hole. I would have thought the seasoning would have been enough for that.
     
  15. Capella_Ben

    Capella_Ben Member

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    Re: E3D v5 All Metal w/Direct Pinch skipping/clicking proble

    I did some test with hot PLA and a sheet of brushed stainless steel. I wanted to replicate the stickyness of the PLA on warm SS. I found that no matter if you polish it or season it the PLA still seemed to stick.

    But if you tried to press melted PLA on cold SS it would not stick at all. It just cooled on contact and left nothing behind.

    So may be my problems are simply heat related. It's certainly possible as I have a non-standard way of cooling.

    Does the water cooled Kraken have any problems with these types of PLA jams? Is it worth experimenting with a water cooled V5?
     
  16. Capella_Ben

    Capella_Ben Member

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    Re: E3D v5 All Metal w/Direct Pinch skipping/clicking proble

    v6 nozzles have now arrived. First print in PLA was a failure.
     
  17. jenschr

    jenschr Member

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    Re: E3D v5 All Metal w/Direct Pinch skipping/clicking proble

    Sad to hear that @Capella_Ben. My reason for choosing E3D was the all-metal design. I don't think lining it with PTFE (like they do in V6) is such a good move. Check what Wikipedia says regarding PTFE (the liner) and heat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polytetraf ... ene#Safety :-(

    After commenting on a G+ post by Sanjay, he emailed me. I replied right away but that is now 5 days ago and I still have not heard back from him :-/

    I took the entire thing down, cleaned it, put it together again and it's now clear to me what my problem is. The heatbreak & heatsink do not fit 100%. They are not machined correctly. When I insert a piece of filament, I can feel a distinct edge/gap where they meet, exactly 32mm down from the top. As soon as heat creeps up to that joint, it'll jam.

    I cannot tighten the heatbreak more or I'm sure it'll snap. It just isn't possible to get a perfectly smooth joint there.
     
  18. Sanjay

    Sanjay Administrator
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    Re: E3D v5 All Metal w/Direct Pinch skipping/clicking proble

    Jens,

    Apologies for the delay in reply, I was out of office at the London 3D Print Show and attending to other business in the city.

    I'm afraid I must disagree with your assertion that the chamfer at the top of the heatbreak where the bore of the heatsink meets the bore of heatbreak is the cause of the issues.

    The section of the heatbreak that resides in the heatsink should remain completely cool right up until the constriction. Heat should never creep up to the chamfer and allow the filament to expand into that gap. This concept also applies to the use of PTFE in the cold side of the hotend, the PTFE is never heated, and is constantly actively cooled such that offgassing etc is negated.

    From what I can see your issues are a combination of an inadequate extruder and maybe cooling as a contributing factor.

    A direct drive extruder with a Mk8 gear is just about fine for a 1.75mm set up, however 3mm filament requires significantly more force to function correctly. This extruder setup is not appropriate for 3mm PLA in an all metal hotend. A geared wades type extruder is usually used for 3mm, and perform excellently.

    It's hard to determine exact airflow just from looking at images, but there appears to be some room for errant flow and air missing the sink. Hotspots are a real possibility and a duct that wraps around the heatsink ensure things behave themselves.

    Capella_Ben,

    I don't have any records of contact with you apart from a shipping time enquiry. Can you please fill in the info form here:
    https://docs.google.com/a/e3d-online.co ... =send_form

    So that we have solid data, it really is vital.

    I hope we can get this all sorted for you guys.
    Sanjay
     
  19. Eaglezsoar

    Eaglezsoar Administrator

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    Re: E3D v5 All Metal w/Direct Pinch skipping/clicking proble

    Thank you, Sanjay!
     
  20. jenschr

    jenschr Member

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    Re: E3D v5 All Metal w/Direct Pinch skipping/clicking proble

    Sanjay,
    Like I've written to you in my email - I have tried the stock fan (30mm), the fan mod that @AlexC posted as well as this custom fan with 40mm fan blowing across the entire upper assembly. There is no difference with any of these. The aluminium is cool to the touch with all 3 fans. I have a high quality Fluke meter with a thermocouple that measured the inner part of the alu fins to be only 31C right after a block. None of the many mods suggested in this thread have solved my problem.

    As for the extruder - the Wades extruder I used to have (a very typical one) is weaker than my direct pinch extruder. I have not measured it, but there's no way any normal human could hold the pinch extruder back by hand. When the E3D hotend blocks on PLA, the entire extruder assembly jumps up and down until the plastic is eaten away. It's when I hear this very audible clicking from the extruder jumping, I know the hotend is blocked. I therefore don't trust your theory about my extruder being too weak. There's several commercial 3mm direct extruders such as the Bulldog XL and the GT9S and these are made for all-metal hotends.

    I also have not seen other vendors of all metal hotends say anything about this being a requirement? If you look at the following thread from the Robo3D forum, you'll find the makers of both the Hexagon & Prometheus hotends telling how extremely important it is to have a perfectly smooth interior. Here's what Eric (that makes Prometheus) says:

    "The problem with moving to an all-metal design is that the machined interior of the SS heat break is relatively rough and significantly increases friction with the soft rubbery plug that forms in the "transition-zone". This is why is starts off printing well and then fails at some point when the friction is too much. The only reliable way to fix this issue is to polish the interior of the SS Heat Break to lower the friction with the "transition-zone" plug. Many all-metal hot ends do not have proper polishing and therefore have a very small margin of reliability."
    ref: http://forums.robo3dprinter.com/index.php?threads/hexagon-hot-end.1888/page-2#post-16369

    I must say that when I know 100% that my E3D hotend has a bad transition, others have complained about rough interior walls (further up this thread) and you claim that my extruder is the problem, I feel that we're not really communicating here. Are you really saying that the extruder is my problem? Is that the same for the other 50+ in this thread? What about the other threads on this and other forums (https://www.google.no/?#q=e3d+pla+jam) that all have the same problem with extruding PLA?

    :-(
     

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