Edge layer adhesion problem

Discussion in 'Filament' started by jkalousek, Nov 12, 2016.

  1. jkalousek

    jkalousek Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2016
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    I need to create parts for our company's machines. I prototyped parts with SpoolWorks PLA and for final items I decide to use SpoolWorks Edge as it should provide better long term quality.

    Problem I'm facing now is that printed parts looks ok but it has extremely poor layer adhesion (and it's brittle). (I can brake of chunks by hand which was not possible with PLA). I tried printing with temps ranging from 225 to 265°C and bed temps around 70-80 °C. With temps 225 - 250 I get nice looking finish and above that prints starts to have weird - bubbles like finish.

    My printer is capable of printing PLA, ABS and NinjaFlex without problem, so I don't thing that it is problem with HW. (I'm, using Prusa i3 with E3D v6 hotend).

    Does anyone have similar experience or some suggestion what might be wrong?

    PS: Now when I'm reading message again symptoms that I'm describing looks like wet filament:
    http://e3d-online.com/Edge says: However prints from wet Edge will be notably more brittle, with reduced fracture toughness and tensile strength.
    However I have this material for one day so it's definitely not wet from my place where I store filaments in box with silica gel.
     
  2. Greg Holloway

    Greg Holloway Administrator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2015
    Messages:
    565
    Likes Received:
    397
    Hi,

    Can you post photos of your failed prints please?

    I print edge at 240C with the bed at 80C.

    What speeds are you printing? Have you calibrated your filament steps-per-mm?
     
  3. jkalousek

    jkalousek Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2016
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Please take a look at this video (sorry for focusing):


    Blue is PLA and Black is Edge. I think that it demonstrates really well what is the difference (I didn't use almost any force on black filament).

    This Edge was printed with 240 °C hotend and 80 °C bed.

    Speed is slow, I usually print with 40 mm/s and this was printed with 75% of regular speed.
    Only thing that I didn't try is to increase extrusion multiplier, but I don't thing that it would solve anything because solid infills are fine and If I increase flow it would probably starting to overflow.
     
    #3 jkalousek, Nov 12, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2016
  4. R Design

    R Design Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2015
    Messages:
    918
    Likes Received:
    183
    How much fan were you using?
     
  5. jkalousek

    jkalousek Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2016
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    I try to print that part with and without fan, part on video was printed without fan.

    Right I'm doing complete recalibration for Edge and I'm trying every possible combination so I will be back later today with result.
     
  6. jkalousek

    jkalousek Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2016
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ok, so I printed bunch o test parts witch different settings and what seems to matter the most is Layer Height I usually print with 0,304 mm but if i go down to 0,2 mm layer adhesion gets much better, it's still not as good as standard PLA but its almost usable. Second thing is that I can't use fan If I use fan even with 0,2 mm Layer Height I can split layers again.
    So only solution right now seems to be print with small layer height and very slow without fan.

    Can you tell me what setting are you using?
     
  7. GrodanB

    GrodanB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2016
    Messages:
    192
    Likes Received:
    26
    So far Edge sucks... Have not successfully gotten ANYTHING useful from the printer when using edge...

    SUPER sensitive to bed leveling... made these:
    [​IMG]
    So I would not have my head explode when trying to get the bed level... uses MBL firmware... I can recommend this should be standard to be honest...

    Does not stick to anything. No help when asking for settings... all I find is help like: well there is no point in telling you anything since everything is different when you print then when I print...

    [​IMG]
    this is as far as I got today.... sat and searched for help printing Edge and suddenly heard cracking noises... that was the pieces warping like hell and stopping me from getting anything useful...

    @240C nozzel and 80 bed. First layer 50% thickness and speed. rest 200µm layer 50mm/s 100% fan ALWAYS. or I have snot boogers as top layer.... UHU glue...

    [​IMG]

    BEST EVER!!!!!! Just totally sucks. Have printed this 5 times before I got this crap.

    furthermore I need to replace my glass bed thanks to Edge...
     
    #7 GrodanB, Jan 2, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2017
  8. Spoon Unit

    Spoon Unit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2015
    Messages:
    1,095
    Likes Received:
    322
    Printing Edge directly onto glass with no additional surface is quite likely to chip your bed. Richrap reported this early, I've damaged two beds with it myself and I think others have similar results. Hell, one of the parts I originally received with my BB had a piece of glass welded to it, so somewhere in the print farm there's a fracture on one of the beds.

    Since then, I've mostly printed Edge on Kapton tape. One of my damaged beds has a layer of Kapton tape (painstakingly applied) and I find Edge and ABS stick well to this material. I should probably just get one of the nice aluminium beds ordered that Alex designed as that has a layer of PEI already on the bed, which again would solve the problem.

    I have printed small parts with Edge on glass+UHU+hairspray without issue too, though I tend to use 220/80 for Edge. Above 220 I hear Edge popping, which could well be some water ingress into the filament. In any case, I tuned the temperature down until the popping stopped.

    Also @GrodanB, it's hard to see from your printed part, but what sort of infill were you using, what bed adhesion? And how many shells. Any thick enough piece of plastic will set up lots of internal stress in the printed part, eventually enough to cause warp almost regardless of part size. I tend to go for no more than 3 solid base layers (@0.3 layer) and then move to 12% fast honeycomb above that. Also, 2 shells unless I've got overhang geometry to worry about.
     
  9. GrodanB

    GrodanB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2016
    Messages:
    192
    Likes Received:
    26
    In the boxes there is no infill...

    I use 25% infill in the fail from today. This is for a camera mount so I wanted some strength...

    I stop my print now and try your setting...

    Have no popping noises.

    I guess that I need to invest in kapton tape then...
     
  10. mike01hu

    mike01hu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2014
    Messages:
    957
    Likes Received:
    166
    Yes, Edge is not a friend of borosilicate glass unless you protect it. I changed my bed to a PEI coated aluminium one and I get good performance from this without any preparation other than cleaning the bed carefully and being level.
     
  11. GrodanB

    GrodanB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2016
    Messages:
    192
    Likes Received:
    26
    Where can I get this PEI coated bed? Is it just a drop in replacement? Because this is torture knowing what I want to do and fail at anything larger than a coin...

    10x10x5 mm bed is today what I can use...

    So far one piece have warped so I need to print a new... so no 100% success...

    220 seems a much better temperature... Waiting for the top layer... or as I call it the snot booger fest... If I get a nice layer then one problem is solved...[​IMG]

    SUCCESS! one useful part...
     
    #11 GrodanB, Jan 2, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2017
  12. Spoon Unit

    Spoon Unit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2015
    Messages:
    1,095
    Likes Received:
    322
    The link you want for the bed (yes a drop in - instead of the glass bed) is here:

    https://clever3d.de/epages/7a4290fc...6cc-9b99-eadef22228e2/Products/c3d-DDP-PEI-sw

    For dimensions, choose 315x215x5mm E3D-bigBox-Clipfix (which is Alex's submitted design, which also will allow the clips to not use any bed real estate). Only downside is that you'll no longer be able to see the pretty grid, but I suspect you won't miss it too much.
     
  13. Spoon Unit

    Spoon Unit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2015
    Messages:
    1,095
    Likes Received:
    322
    By the way, to get Edge to stick (and must say I don't have black Edge myself which could be different), is to give the bed a good clean. Put the bed back, heat up to 55 and apply a nice thin (but complete) layer of UHU, then spray some hairspray on top of that UHU. I find this gives a really sticky layer and I can definitely print the green Edge on that, though I'm not printing that specific part, and if the stresses are strong, then I'd go with some Kapton (http://e3d-online.com/Kapton-Tape-50mmx30m?search=kapton) or get that PEI bed.
     
  14. GBR1

    GBR1 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2016
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    6
    Edge is my go to filament! I print head temp 240 and bed 80 @60mm/sec. This is on a thin layer of UHU. I have a product which I sell, I am currently going through 20-30 rolls a month. Only failures I get are if the first layer isn't squashed in properly or I run out of filament:)

    Due to the amount I use its always dry (straight to of the packet), each print is 24 hours, so 2 of those and a reel is finished.

    Good luck finding your settings, once dialled in its great!

    GBR1
     
    mike01hu likes this.
  15. GrodanB

    GrodanB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2016
    Messages:
    192
    Likes Received:
    26
    Anybody knows why I can't order this? There is one with the same size but is called "eckig". Will that one work?
     
  16. GrodanB

    GrodanB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2016
    Messages:
    192
    Likes Received:
    26
    Squashed in... Can you describe your settings for this? I'll try that if it is different from what I do today...

    To fix the bed is 85€ as described above so if someone has a fix that is using the standard bed then I think most people will be happy... And since I will not have the bed for at least two weeks if I order today a intermediate fix is good too...

    Will buy hairspray on my way home from work... Any type that is recommended?
     
  17. GBR1

    GBR1 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2016
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    6
    This is on a std bed. Squashed is simply so the filament goes down flat for the first layer, this is simply the bed height, not a setting in S3D..
     
  18. Spoon Unit

    Spoon Unit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2015
    Messages:
    1,095
    Likes Received:
    322
    I think you can also do that with a setting in S3D by setting first layer height. Appreciate that if you're essentially just printing money all month, you might as well just set the bed once and you're done though.
     
  19. mike01hu

    mike01hu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2014
    Messages:
    957
    Likes Received:
    166
    The "Clipfix" version is the one you need and I would advise that you get the black colour so that the IR sensor has a better colour to respond to.
     
  20. Spoon Unit

    Spoon Unit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2015
    Messages:
    1,095
    Likes Received:
    322
    I just ordered mine yesterday, in black. Looking forward to trying it out.
     

Share This Page