Edge layer adhesion problem

Discussion in 'Filament' started by jkalousek, Nov 12, 2016.

  1. Henry feldman

    Henry feldman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2015
    Messages:
    969
    Likes Received:
    389
    Like others I have had glass weld into the parts and crack off (and like @Spoon Unit had a piece of the original carriage with a big chunk of glass from E3D). I use one of the Wolfbite products that makes PETG stick (I actually have a bed for PLA. one for nylon and one for PETG since they all have different wolfbite products on them, and this way I switch glass rather than clean and recoat), and have no bed adhesion issues (* well in the not-sticking direction, I have had adhesion problems in the sense of can't get it off the glass) which most of the time sticks really well, and releases fairly well.
     
  2. GrodanB

    GrodanB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2016
    Messages:
    187
    Likes Received:
    26
    Second time I could order the black so it was not a real problem. Let's hope this is the solution.
     
  3. mike01hu

    mike01hu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2014
    Messages:
    957
    Likes Received:
    166
    Providing that the bed is level and clean and you get the first layer right you should find this OK. Remember to ensure you allow the bed to cool to about 30C and you will be able to remove parts easily. @Alex9779 put this in his end script so that the notification that the print was finished came at that point.
     
  4. GrodanB

    GrodanB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2016
    Messages:
    187
    Likes Received:
    26
    Ok, sounds good. Have tried the hairspray and it actually stuck... I now have my highest part built in Edge...

    But still... if no gunk is needed so much better.

    I copied the cool down script from Rob Horne where he tries to avoid the chipping takes time but seem sensible.

    Will remove it when I get the new plate. Bed leveling seems to be the key here.
     
  5. Spoon Unit

    Spoon Unit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2015
    Messages:
    1,095
    Likes Received:
    321
    First layer is everything .... every time I clean the bed (not that often actually), I will reprint a small item, single layer, just to allow me to get the Bed Z setting absolutely spot on again.

    I agree with the idea of letting the bed cool before pulling stuff off, though that won't help the glass crack if it's already welded to the part. For me, the key is in getting something between the part and the surface. In my case, that's UHU and hairspray, and with the new bed, that'll be different anyway as there's no glass to fracture, but there will be a PEI layer to kill if it's not cared for. The longer you leave things, the easier they'll come away. At 21 degrees, the typical temperature when I wake up, I can often just sweep the whole bed and everything will come off with zero pulling. 30/31 is usually OK, but sometimes 36 is fine too. I will probably be a bit more careful with the new bed as I don't want to kill that PEI layer.

    @mike01hu, you said before that you use alcohol to clean the bed. I'm curious what precisely you use and where you source it? Would this do? (https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Beauty/T...=1483569698&sr=1-3&keywords=isopropyl+alcohol)
     
  6. Henry feldman

    Henry feldman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2015
    Messages:
    969
    Likes Received:
    389
    For the PEI on my taz I just use isopropyl alcohol pads that we use in the hospital. Works great
     
  7. mike01hu

    mike01hu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2014
    Messages:
    957
    Likes Received:
    166
    Just methylated spirit from the hardware store; B&Q if you're in the UK, but any pure alcohol (vodka or gin :D) will do as it's primarily a degreaser. I would not recommend other solvents on PEI. Be aware that some beauty alcohol products have other ingredients that will leave a residue.
     
  8. GrodanB

    GrodanB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2016
    Messages:
    187
    Likes Received:
    26
    Almost ok.... Partly my fault this time... Biggest part did not stick so it's not straight. But being lazy I used only 3 clips and sometime during the print the nozzle probably hit the part that did not stick and moved the bed...

    Very nice print but suddenly 0.5-1mm offsetted... and then nice print again... Looks like it happen 5 minutes after I went to bed.

    But I do not like that the clips eats away on the cork every time I remove them... Have an idea to add a little shrink wrap to remove the sharp "teeths".

    Do not like to spray hairspray inside the box.
     
  9. Spoon Unit

    Spoon Unit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2015
    Messages:
    1,095
    Likes Received:
    321
    I've had that happen too. I added some Kapton tape onto the cork where I normally put the clips. Often with an unstuck part, the nozzle will just push it back down again as, at least at first, the unstuck part has only lifted a little. What sort of distance do you have between the nozzle and the next item higher (if you see what I mean). For me, I would say that the next thing higher after the nozzle is the bottom of the z-bed sensor and that'll be almost neck and neck with the bottom of the part cooling fan shroud. In my case, that's all at least 2mm above the nozzle exit.
     
  10. GrodanB

    GrodanB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2016
    Messages:
    187
    Likes Received:
    26
    I have moved the height sensor to below the bed. So I insensitive to anything concerning that... Have had to many occasions where the bed rams into the nozzles due to the fact that the sensor did not see the glass (happen if I had UHU glue just under the sensor.)

    Next part after the nozzles is the cooling duct.
     
    mike01hu likes this.
  11. Spoon Unit

    Spoon Unit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2015
    Messages:
    1,095
    Likes Received:
    321
    How far away is that?
     
  12. GrodanB

    GrodanB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2016
    Messages:
    187
    Likes Received:
    26
    Approximately 1 mm above the nozzle.

    I plan to print Greg's updated air duct and test that...
     
  13. Spoon Unit

    Spoon Unit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2015
    Messages:
    1,095
    Likes Received:
    321
    Yeh. 1mm above nozzle height is incredibly close, in my humble opinion, and certain to bash into anything that shouldn't be there, which is probably a slightly lifted piece of plastic.
     
  14. GrodanB

    GrodanB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2016
    Messages:
    187
    Likes Received:
    26
    How high would you recommend... I put it as low as possible so that it does not blow on the nozzle...
     
  15. Spoon Unit

    Spoon Unit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2015
    Messages:
    1,095
    Likes Received:
    321
    Well I'm no expert really, but the potential (and experience) of having the x-carriage ram stuff made me wary. This is how mine looks.

    Here the nozzle is about 0.5mm from the bed and lokos like the next thing, the fan shroud is at about 3.2. So there's a decent gap there anyway. I custom printed a fan shroud to pull up that extra touch more than the original one would go. As regards the air hitting the nozzle, at least with the sock on it doesn't put a dent in the temperature, even at the furious 100% gale-force option.

    2017-01-08 20.48.28.jpg
     
  16. Cedric_K

    Cedric_K Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2017
    Messages:
    22
    Likes Received:
    10
    I have only experience with PLA, but just tested 1 spool of Oxford Blue Edge last month.
    I got same problems at beggining, I couldn't do anything with this filament

    Everything became fine with :

    - not too squished first layer (unlike PLA)

    - low, or no cooling of the part while printig (Edge dramatically doesn like that, unlike PLA)

    - Exact diameter of filament entered into slicer (mesured on a lot of point, was around 1,78mm for me).

    - extruder multiplier 91% (I made a 40mm/s 20x20x20 empty cube, with 1 shell, and corrected multiplier till getting an exact 0,4mm shell (0,4 nozzle and 0,4mm width in slicer). then removed 1% again. (PLA likes a tiny overextrusion, Edge has no tolerance with)

    - A clean glass bed, and a VERY thin layer of gluestick (scotch seems cleaner than UHU)

    - 240°C hotend / 80°C heatbed. (exactly as advised on the box).

    I get a very strong adhesion while printing, and part pops alone when the heatbed cools down.

    I think the fine setting of extrusion multiplier was actually the major parameter in my troubleshooting.

    See attachment, 3h print, contact area is 3mm thick for 130mm long, so adhesion is good..

    Hopes it could help.
    DSC_0321.JPG DSC_0324.JPG
    Cedric
     
    #37 Cedric_K, Jan 16, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2017
  17. Old_Tafr

    Old_Tafr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2016
    Messages:
    551
    Likes Received:
    75
    Using red Edge on a BigBox, and numerous test prints not yet anything like successful prints but some other common factors..

    Using glass bed, Uhu (only) works a treat, spread it cold so that about 30% of the bed has a thin cover. Add a little water (a pool the size of a 50 p piece) just enough so that with an old clean toothbrush you can thinly cover the whole bed by rotating the toothbrush in about 2" or so circles, that is 5 cm ish.

    Cover the whole bed in circles right to the edges, so that there is no bare glass to be seen, then make left to right (light to very light) passes with the toothbrush working from the far edge, ending up at the nearest edge to yourself. In this way you can get a very thin and even layer. Do not make half passes or stop or start half way if you can avoid it, make each pass from the left edge to the right edge without stopping. (ok right to left if you wish ! or even alternately)

    If you see any patches where the layer is too thin and you can see the glass then make light passes again just over this portion until the layer is even, but if you can make the passes right from one edge to the other.

    If there are any solid white spots or streaks these will be far too thick so you have used too much Uhu to start with. You should end up with a thin smooth whitish layer that is see through. As it dries it seems to get smoother and without any brush marks (streaks)

    Prints release easily without taking the glass with it. I suspect that when you have white streaks or lumps of Uhu this is when it bonds to the glass. I use a small craft knife, the type with a long blade with sections that snap off, use it level with the bed and slice under the print.

    I do the bed levelling prior to applying the Uhu, as the layer is very thin and even and when released the underside of the print is smooth and flat. One application can last for ten prints or more. The thin and higher temp (240oC) first layer would appear to negate the thickness of the glue layer. In slic3r I have for a 0.8 Volcano nozzle 0.35 mm first layer and extrusion width of 200%.

    My first two raft layers come out just wonderful ! unlike the rest of the print, but I suspect I have too big a layer height (0.7) and still too high a temp at 230oC bed at 80 after 85 for first layer.

    It is interesting to see that some people use the E3D recommended temps of 240/80 yet others come down to 220/80 "though I tend to use 220/80 for Edge. Above 220 I hear Edge popping" (from Spoon Unit). I am down to 230 from 240 and the prints still look like they have been warmed with a heat gun, extrusion multiplier at 0.85. Straight lines and big curves look fine but small bosses seem to have far too much melted filament. Could the temp difference be due to the colour of the Edge filament? as I cannot see the temp sensor being 10 or more degrees out.
     

Share This Page