glass bed vs. e.g. BuildTak flex plate

Discussion in 'Getting Started' started by zil0g, Dec 17, 2019.

  1. zil0g

    zil0g Member

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    is there a reason why the ToolChanger has been specced with a glass bed rather than a flexible one as on e.g. a Prusa? Any practical reason why I couldn't fit a BuildTak plate instead (would I still need the glass bed to clip it onto if so)? Thanks.
     
  2. Greg Holloway

    Greg Holloway Administrator
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    We sell glass beds, so it makes sense for us to develop our machine to use them.

    There is absolutely no reason why you couldn't do something else entirely. I have an aluminium bed in place of the glass plate, details are here | https://forum.e3d-online.com/threads/settings-clever3d-pei-coated-aluminum-bed.1598/

    EDIT: I think this is the bed, tagged BigBox (clipfix). I use the non PEI version as I print PEEK.

    https://clever3d.de/epages/7a4290fc...c-7c7f-46cc-9b99-eadef22228e2/Products/c3d-DP
     
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  3. Rob Heinzonly

    Rob Heinzonly Well-Known Member

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    I use both the Buildtak and the PEI bed on my toolchanger. Works like a charm.
     
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  4. Ben Kay

    Ben Kay Well-Known Member

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  5. blarbles

    blarbles Well-Known Member

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  6. Ben Kay

    Ben Kay Well-Known Member

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    You're absolutely right, that's the one I meant to link to.

    I stuck the magnet tape directly to the heated bed itself......is that a problem?!
     
  7. blarbles

    blarbles Well-Known Member

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    I believe the magnet they include, over time, will degrade and will degrade even faster at bed temperatures above 65 C. You will still be able to get it off your aluminum bed if it fails, but it might take some effort.
     
  8. Andy Cohen

    Andy Cohen Well-Known Member

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    The operable word in your question which makes a significant difference is "flexible".
    Having a flexible print surface is OK for helping get the objects off, but that's about the only real advantage. Otherwise you will ALWAYS be WAY better off with a rigid, FLAT, mineral surface. The heated aluminum surface underneath changes shape. You don't want your print surface to also change shape. You want it FLAT.
    Rather than modifying right away take some time printing on the glass plate WITHOUT the Buildcrap. Use glue stick or if you can get it Aquanet Super Extra Hold Unscented, the ONLY hairspray which contains the liquid vinyl which makes it stick with heat and release with cold.
    BTW we use the flexible textured Buildtak like surface at the local Makerspace machines only because we cannot trust the glass plates with the many people who use them.
     
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  9. Jai Stanley

    Jai Stanley Well-Known Member

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    I have three of the glass beds.. One is covered with PEI for general use, one with Magigoo PC and one with Magigoo PA. Make of that what you will.
     
  10. Paul Arden

    Paul Arden Well-Known Member

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    I wasn't a fan of glass, however Magigoo has made a convert out of me. I prefer the finish of my power coated PEI beds (I know others who absolutely hate it though) and they are great for PETG but since I started using Magigoo I've had a lot more luck with glass.
     
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  11. Jai Stanley

    Jai Stanley Well-Known Member

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    I always find thick PEI (0.8mm to 1mm) and use a random orbital sander with quite coarse (180 grit usually) paper. A light touch and you get a matte surface that grabs filament at line starts, gives a nice finish and is quite durable. I tend to re-do it every month or so. The thick PEI takes LOADS of re-finishes. Wouldn't do it with the old PRUSA style PEI 'tape' they used.

    I was dubious about Magigoo... But tried their formula for printing polycarbonate and was seriously impressed. I now have three of them: normal (when I want shiny ABS/PEI bottomn layers), PC and a new one for PA. I used PVA previously for Nylon, but looking forward to trying the Magigoo formula. I have a sperical guide bush to print for a friends christmas present, so I'll do that in Nylon and let you all know what I think of it.
     
  12. Andy Cohen

    Andy Cohen Well-Known Member

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    PEI works nice, but it likes to not let PETG go. I like to keep all my plates the same. A plate per material gets into and changes my task flow (height variation, etc.). Also, PEI in thick plates is pricey.
    Magigoo? Never heard of it till now. I wonder what's in it? Looked at their website and could not find anything. Do they provide an MDS?
    But... YIKES it ain't cheep! In the US the all in one version is $20 from Amazon. A can of good old Aquanet lasts me about a year and I print more then most people (I still print commercially to the local artists and businesses in the Bay Area). A can costs from $2-$4 U.S. in any drug store or market(yeah, I know y'all can't buy it over there... sorry)
    Does Magigoo release in cold? When I print large stuff that does not want to come off the glass I put it and the plate into the freezer for 5 minutes and then lt lifts right off with no damage to the plate or the object.

    hmm... I wonder if I can buy some Aquanet here and send it to there??? I wonder if it would be worth it? A mineral plate (glass, tile or aluminum... even steel) with Aquanet super extra hold unscented has met 100% of my use cases and ALL materials I've used for the past 10 years.
     
  13. Paul Arden

    Paul Arden Well-Known Member

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    In my experience yes. I had an almost 1KG print on a bedslinger (CR-10S) and was pretty happy with the holding power when hot. The other nice thing is it cleans up much easier with water than PVA.

    Like a lot of people, I pretty much stopped experimenting when I found something that worked for me, which on glass was Magigoo. Just make sure you never squeeze the tube with the applicator tip not against the bed or it’s libel to pop off and dump the whole tube of not cheap Magigoo on the bed (don’t ask why I know that).

    For PEI and PETG, definitely on stick on sheets it can stick way too much (you have to avoid cleaning with IPA before hand or use something for release). Powder coated PEI beds though is a whole other story, I can squeeze the first layer way too much and still have it just pop off when cold (and it’s never going anywhere when hot).
     
  14. Andy Cohen

    Andy Cohen Well-Known Member

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    Ya know Aquanet IS on Amazon. One task flow, one type of plate for all materials.
     
  15. Paul Arden

    Paul Arden Well-Known Member

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    In the US perhaps. But don't assume that all products are easily accessible outside the US. Yes, it's just hairspray but to switch to something like that here in Australia I'd need to experiment and find out which brand works as well as everyone in the US says Aquanet does. Back in the day I used to use hairspray for putting on bicycle grips, I remember how vastly different different brands were.

    I don't feel the need to use one way to do everything. If I did I'd probably choose power coated PEI to be honest since it works for me every time with every material and doesn't have the bonding risk that glass does with some materials (and I love the texture it gives to prints). Also virtually no surface prep or cleaning other than the occasional IPA wipe.

    Bed surfaces and coatings I think are always going to be something of a personal preference. I'm not saying what I use is better, just what I prefer personally.
     
  16. mhe

    mhe Well-Known Member

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    Clever3D PEI plate, E3D glass plate blank and an E3D glass plate covered with PrintBite+ foil. Haven't missed a flexible plate yet.
     
  17. Paul Meyer

    Paul Meyer Well-Known Member

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    I realize I've been spoiled for the last two years. I've been using two Prusa i3 Mk3s as my go to printers. Both have "just works" mesh bed leveling (I've levelled the beds anyway, but it feels superfluous) and flex steel powder-coat PEI sheets. *everything* sticks during printing. Most things pop off easily when cool, worst case have to pull the bed off and flex it a bit. I've stopped even thinking about bed prep.

    On my glass plate, I keep having corners peel up (blank glass, blue tape so far). It feels like going back to to my ultimaker days to be using a glass plate, pulling out the blue tape, aquanet (I still have a can), and glue stick. I want to focus on my multi-material, not my bed!

    I've got magigloo and bedweld on order, I'll give them a try.

    I'll have to hit the plans and dig up the heated bed size to start ordering PEI type alternatives.

    Paul

    (BTW, for those looking for sizes, I think the original glass bed is 214 x 314 mm, going by my quick tape measure conversion and what is available on e3d website)
     
    #17 Paul Meyer, Jan 21, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2020
  18. Omnimuller Inc.

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    And that is, what clever people call upselling.

    Also, I seem to remember you saying in some forum thread that the Toolchanger wasn't designed to operate as a heated chamber. What modifications did you make to get it working? Could you oerhaps post some pictures of your build of the TC?
     
  19. Greg Holloway

    Greg Holloway Administrator
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    Is this question directed at someone else? I've not built an enclosed heated chamber toolchanger.
     
  20. Omnimuller Inc.

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    Oh sorry, I just assumed you had, because you mentioned printing in PEEK. My bad :D
     

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