Glass build plate woes

Discussion in 'Calibration, Help, and Troubleshooting' started by Chris Toast, May 10, 2016.

  1. Chris Toast

    Chris Toast Well-Known Member

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    Heed the warning, brothers and sisters!

    I'm relatively new to 3d printing ownership, having completed my BB dual ex kit just two weeks ago and getting quite lucky with a great first print of that Benchy hello world object. Since then, I've been churning PLA test after test and having a blast doing it. I finally decided I was ready to try a big-boy material so I grabbed some of that fancy Protopasta branded PC-ABS "Alloy" from the Stretch box. After a few false starts getting the material dialed in, I was ready to print something with roughly 70x40mm contact space-a customized Y stepper bracket that would accommodate an AstroSyn dampener and reduce contact with the frame (reduce resonance). All that of course is irrelavent.

    This seemed like the ideal material as all my quick tests seemed quite promising. I ran the filament at 165c and the bed at 125c. As the part was cooling down, I noticed a distinctly frightening series of clinking sounds- similar to when large cubes if ice are starting to crack as they get comfortable in a refreshment. This continued for a few minutes as we transitioned from about 100 to 80c on the bed.

    Needless to say, the part released relatively easily with a basic lift tool-less so than efforts required to pull some of the PLA parts I was working on earlier. However, a sizeable area about 25mm by 6mm of glass was bonded to the part...post removal :(

    So it leads to my point-otherwise quite happy. E3D said it this thing would kick ass, and it does. They also said it could handle all these wonderful materials-they even sent me some! Awesome. Except....now I and quite a few other owners are dealing with build surface failure.

    However, theres mounting evidence that the build plate is an unresolved reliability issue that really has not seen its fair share of testing.

    I'd absolutely love to hear E3D address this.
     
  2. Chris Toast

    Chris Toast Well-Known Member

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    I know RichRap explored this issue a few months back. Many people saw it-I did as well. But, I also don't know much about plastics and material sciences so I plead ignorance. That still seems less-than-ideal as a workaround to solve an inherent flaw in the end product, imo.

    Final verdict, 45 bones (USD) is an expensive outcome.
     
  3. Miasmictruth

    Miasmictruth Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if it will save me, but I have been using a surface coating and printing plenty of PETG without an issue so far without issue.

    I think Livi uses BuildTak
     
  4. Steven Burns

    Steven Burns Well-Known Member

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    Livi does or at least did use buildtak, but certain filaments do not release at all from buildtak so I would be cautious.

    I have not installed it yet, but I bought the Surface acreen protector and will be giving that a try in one side of the glass and keep the other as bare. RichRap highly recommended it and it should save your glass from breaking. I would rather lose the protector than the glass bed itself.
     
  5. Miasmictruth

    Miasmictruth Well-Known Member

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    True, take a way quite a bitbof build volume I bought one but turned out smaller then I would have liked
     
  6. Brian Dowling

    Brian Dowling Active Member

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    Obviously concerned about this too..

    Just some random thoughts.. Is there something that should be done for a graceful cooldown procedure? e.g. Control it gradually through gcode vs letting it just drop? Moving Z further away from the heads (note: electronics fans too) and any air movement their fans contributing to convection cooling?

    Are their other slicing methods to get less "full coverage" adhesion to the bed, e.g. less dense rafts or skirts that have a squished first layer, but the main object is not?

    I'm not thinking this would solve all cases, and in some cases you may want that glass smooth finish, but just trying to think if it'd help..
     
  7. Tom De Bie

    Tom De Bie Well-Known Member

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    I can recommend using glue stick on the glass plate. I've been using it since the beginning and never had any problems with it.
    You just have to apply it evenly on the glass so there are no lumps or bumps. Then when the plate cools down you'll also hear a cracking sound, but that's just the part coming loose from the build plate ;)
     
  8. Falc.be

    Falc.be Well-Known Member

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    I have not had these problems so far, but i did notice sizzling since I started with colorfabb HT, my hearing is not that good so I cant locate the source.
     
    #8 Falc.be, May 10, 2016
    Last edited: May 10, 2016
  9. Henry feldman

    Henry feldman Well-Known Member

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    The cool down is pretty slow anyway. I've noticed from 55C->28C (about the temperature that PLA just pops off of Wolfbite Nano) takes 10 minutes easy (of course this depends on room temp, airflow, etc). I had one glass chip on the original bed (ordered a replacement) when I was printing blueprint one of my pieces came off with glass embedded, but that's with the bed at 95C and print at 265C.
     
  10. Miasmictruth

    Miasmictruth Well-Known Member

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    Was that bare glass or coated? I am wondering if simple coatings is all you need. 3D-eez for me Wolf bite for you, UHU for many others.
     
  11. Henry feldman

    Henry feldman Well-Known Member

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    That was Bluprint which Taulman said to print on clean glass, so that was bare. The nylon and PLA so far have been on appropriate wolfbites
     
  12. Miasmictruth

    Miasmictruth Well-Known Member

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    Interesting, I wonder if one of the wolf bytes would be appropriate, I think the the screen protector were to be employed we would need to change the 9 point mesh points in the firmware, if I am not mistaken I think RichRap was using a Pro and auto level
     
  13. Chris Toast

    Chris Toast Well-Known Member

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    I kinda think the onus is on e3d at the moment. I'd like to see them acknowledge that there is a degree of a problem inherent in the bed and present a solid solution. We can kluge work-arounds as makers and tinkerers, and that is fine. However, its time to own up to this problem imo.
     
  14. R Design

    R Design Well-Known Member

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    I don't know much about glass but you hear people speaking of "float glass" and I had the impression that flat sheets are usually made by floating molten glass out onto something.

    If that's the case then might there not be tiny differences between the sides of the glass?

    I've been wondering if one is "better" (flatter, stronger....) than the other.....

    (A while back somebody posted pictures of their glass with a steel ruler across it. There were huge dips in the surface. That must reflect the manufacturing process, whatever it is.)
     
  15. mike01hu

    mike01hu Well-Known Member

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    The float glass process produces very flat glass but glass is quite flexible so can sag quite a bit if it is thin. I think that the BigBox glass suffers slightly from inadequate support in the middle but gets away with it being quite thick and the deflection is very small. @Spoon Unit 's Heated Bed Supports are a good solution to countering sag in the heater matrix but will also provide additional support for the glass if you are worried. Of course, anything that reduces he stresses in the glass can be useful as it already suffers from stress-inducing temperature fluctuations across its surface due to the models sitting on it.
     
  16. mike01hu

    mike01hu Well-Known Member

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    The float glass process produces very flat glass but glass is quite flexible so can sag quite a bit if it is thin. I think that the BigBox glass suffers from inadequate support in the middle but gets away with it being quite thick. @Spoon Unit 's Heated Bed Supports are a good solution to countering sag in the heater matrix but will also provide additional support for the glass.
     
  17. mike01hu

    mike01hu Well-Known Member

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    The float glass process produces very flat glass but glass is quite flexible so can sag quite a bit if it is thin. I think that the BigBox glass suffers from inadequate support in the middle but gets away with it being quite thick. @Spoon Unit 's Heated Bed Supports are a good solution to countering sag in the heater matrix but will also provide additional support for the glass.
     
  18. Ualdayan

    Ualdayan Member

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    On my first printer I had Taulman Bluprint rip up a large part of the center of it. I think it just happens and it isn't necessarily anything different in E3D's bed than any other printer's borosilicate glass bed. They could 'own up to it' but any fix would just be doing what a lot of us already are doing - using something other than glass on top (Buildtak, PEI, Surface Pro 4 Screen Protector, etc.)
     
    mike01hu likes this.
  19. Chris Toast

    Chris Toast Well-Known Member

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    I have no hesitation that this is a YMMV experience. The guys were wise to use "almost" in conjunction with "capable" and "every material".

    "Self-destruction when used with supplied materials" is probably not a good product design to market approach, however.
     

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