It works ! Lots to learn :-) Noisy extruders ?

Discussion in 'Motion System' started by Yakeru, Sep 20, 2019.

  1. Yakeru

    Yakeru Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2019
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    5
    Hello everyone,

    Just finished assembling my printer.
    Only issue I had was my Duet WiFi's firmware, I had to update it. Before the update, it had very strange behaviors.
    After that, commissioning went smoothly.
    Printed the 3D Benchy, then the calibration test, no problem. No need to change anything to the X Y offsets, nor T0 Z, just added 0.03 mm to T1 Z, lucky :) (I have only 2 tools for instance)

    Started experimenting with the tool changer cover in Simplify 3D, and that's when the learning curve hit me hard !

    First, S3D profile: took me a while before thinking to look at the Benchy's file to copy the parameters (and later find the factory file on GitHub) !

    At first, the printer was dropping the tool at the beginning, because of the default starting script in S3D that wants to do a Z calibration or homing :-D

    Then, bowden is new for me, I have 5 years of experience with direct drive, the bowden system took some getting used to. Another thing that took time for me was the glass bed ! not easy to get PLA to stick on that, compared to capton... But, thorough cleaning with alcohol, and adequate layer height seems to do the trick :)

    My 4rth attempt at printing the tool changer cover with 2 color seems to be going well now. I had some curious under-extrusion issues, but using the correct profile in S3D + adjusting the extruder's tension seems to have fixed it.

    Now, my only "concern" : are the extruder motors supposed to be "that" noisy ? I can clearly hear while the hot-end is coasting that all the noise from the entire machine comes from the extruder, and it's a lot ! Being used to my nearly silent printerbot (from which I cannibalized the Duet WiFi) I'm surprised !

    Thanks for the great documentation and many answers on the forum !
    Hope to share more interesting info and my accomplishments very soon :)
     
  2. Paul Arden

    Paul Arden Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2019
    Messages:
    180
    Likes Received:
    59
    Also curious what others experience with noise levels has been from the printer in general. During the calibration print I get some particularly bad noise and also during extrusion at times. It sounds related to the acrylic to me but I can’t pin it town or feel where the vibration is.
     
  3. Yakeru

    Yakeru Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2019
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    5
    ho yes ! The side panels are definitely amplifying some frequencies, I cant feel it, and the noise goes down when I put my hand on them, but I haven't attached the spool holders & spools on them yet, so once there will be some weight on them it should reduce the vibrations. Also, I didn't install the second back panel yet, I'm printing the PSU duct and blank plate at the moment :)
     
  4. Spoon Unit

    Spoon Unit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2015
    Messages:
    1,561
    Likes Received:
    483
    My machine was very noisy until I placed some of the polystyerene the printer was delivered with under the feet. Now, yes, the extruders and fans are the noisiest. The extruder motor noise seems directly proportional to how fast you drive them, and I guess the acrylic is really amplifying that a lot. Perhaps some rubber washers could damp the vibration transfer? Then the fans on the hotend are next. The one for the heatsink is tiny and, no matter what I've tried so far, I cannot run it at anything other than 100%. Anything less and it just halts. For the bigbox I ended up running a blower into there at 40% which was fine and almost silent. Then we have the part cooling fan, which is again quite noisy, but it's also small. A bigger blower could be run more slowly, or provide more air to hit multiple directions.
     
  5. Yakeru

    Yakeru Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2019
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    5
    Absolutely !

    Now, from my experience with the Duet in my PrintrBot, the noise was also directly related to the current sent to the motors. In the Motion System, the extruder motors are set at 1.68 A. (If I remember properly, in my printrBot I was hovering around 800 mA)

    It's tempting to reduce the current, but considering the under-extrusion issues I had ... not sure it's a good idea. And there is surely a reason why e3D's team chose that value.

    I fear that the only solution to make the extruders silent would be torkier motors.
     
  6. Spoon Unit

    Spoon Unit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2015
    Messages:
    1,561
    Likes Received:
    483
    I think the extruders are set to 1680 by default simply because that's the maximum they're rated for. I'm currently running mine at 1200 simply because they get too hot to touch at 1680. I think the key point for any motor is that, based on the load you require, you need enough juice to not lose steps. So with everything being GCODE, you could set up a tower print and slowly drop the current ever few layers, print the setting on the print, and see at what point the print quality changes.
     
    Greg_The_Maker likes this.
  7. Greg_The_Maker

    Greg_The_Maker Administrator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2015
    Messages:
    1,035
    Likes Received:
    632
    I'm busy with TCT next week, but on my return I shall code a tower. Unless someone does it before me....
     
  8. Yakeru

    Yakeru Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2019
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    5
    That's a good idea ! I will make one myself (after fixing my extrusion problem) by using several profiles in S3D.
     
  9. Spoon Unit

    Spoon Unit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2015
    Messages:
    1,561
    Likes Received:
    483
    Here's the block and the results. Suggest you slice and edit yourselves to get the GCODE right for your machine.

    [​IMG]

    I ran this in vase mode to get a quick print. If you keep the model as attached, you just need to go in and search for Z=10.0, Z=20.0, etc... for each block transition. Insert this to adjust the current for all extruders, and then you can run for any tool:

    Code:
    M906 E1530:1530:1530:1530
    I'll the parametric tuning tower to Thingiverse then you can supply different numbers and steps for any other parameters you want to tweak.
     

    Attached Files:

    mhe, Greg_The_Maker and Paul Arden like this.
  10. Spoon Unit

    Spoon Unit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2015
    Messages:
    1,561
    Likes Received:
    483
    mhe likes this.
  11. Spoon Unit

    Spoon Unit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2015
    Messages:
    1,561
    Likes Received:
    483
    X Y Current test more interesting for what it doesn't show ...

    [​IMG]

    It seems to show that you can happily run your X Y current at 600. What you don't see is that at the end of the print, with only 600mA feeding those motors, the move to the dock for the purge was incomplete. Had I not been there to stop the machine, I would have had a head crash.

    I suspect if I'd printed this in layers, with typical restraction, z motion, and high speed movement between, I would have had no end of layer shifting from those missed steps.
     
  12. Paul Arden

    Paul Arden Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2019
    Messages:
    180
    Likes Received:
    59
    Did you notice any significant different in noise? Not sure if you were actively listening for the whole print of course.
     
  13. Spoon Unit

    Spoon Unit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2015
    Messages:
    1,561
    Likes Received:
    483
    I watched the whole print. For the extruders current test, the motors become less squeaky as the current dropped. However, I thought I'd fix the current at 780, and when I restarted for the XY current test, the first block didn't print properly. So I returned currents for the extruders back up, selecting 1280. For XY, the noise didn't change much at all all the way down. I didn't know I had a problem until the failed move at the end.
     
  14. Yakeru

    Yakeru Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2019
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    5
    That's great ! I will test that to !

    Another source of noise in my case, the bowden tubes going from the spools to the extruders, they vibrate againts the back panel.
     
  15. Spoon Unit

    Spoon Unit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2015
    Messages:
    1,561
    Likes Received:
    483
    Interesting. I hadn't even looked for that.
     
  16. Greg_The_Maker

    Greg_The_Maker Administrator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2015
    Messages:
    1,035
    Likes Received:
    632
    print two towers, one at opposite ends of the beds so you can check the travel moves still work fine.
     
  17. Spoon Unit

    Spoon Unit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2015
    Messages:
    1,561
    Likes Received:
    483
    Done. Twice. But twice ran into the problem of my model growing tall enough for the motion of the head to generate enough moment of turning force to rip the narrow model off the bed. That said, I did have flawless blocks at 1.2 A for the XY motors. They're big throws of the head so I think that's probably a safe number if it can withstand that much maximum speed motion (maxed at 35000 that is).

    For now at least, I'll set this:

    Code:
    M906 X1200 Y1200 Z1330 C400 E1200:1200:1200:1200 I30
     
    Rob Heinzonly likes this.
  18. Rob Heinzonly

    Rob Heinzonly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2015
    Messages:
    448
    Likes Received:
    174
    I can confirm that running the XY steppers at 1000mA reduces the noise by 80% (with side panels mounted ;)). I'm using the good old Bigbox extruder steppers for the extruders in the Toolchanger (Wantai 42BYGHM809), and have them running on 1000mA also. I did have some retraction issues when I lowered them to 750 mA, but at 1000mA they can hardly be heard.
     
    Spoon Unit likes this.
  19. Paul Arden

    Paul Arden Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2019
    Messages:
    180
    Likes Received:
    59
    During testing today I remembered you mentioned this and grabbed the tube off the panel and the noise stopped immediately. I guess the vibration is traveling through the filament from the toolhead. So glad you mentioned that, it sounded like the panels were going to shake themselves off.
     
  20. Yakeru

    Yakeru Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2019
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    5

Share This Page