Mechanical Leveling

Discussion in 'BigBox General Chat' started by rdahm, Jun 28, 2016.

  1. rdahm

    rdahm Member

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    So, well before any of us got our boxes, this was posted.

    Then they "moved away from it" in favor of an optical sensor that a lot of people have had a bad time with (that I've talked to, anyway).
    Is there a way to get this back on a BB? If it already existed, as a backer, am I not allowed to request .STL's and firmware code? Why on earth kill the horse if the horse runs every day?
    Leveling the BB is my lease favorite activity and it's odd that this hasn't been brought up, as it's something I was a little excited about during development and completely loathe upon actual launch.
     
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  2. Razar

    Razar Member

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    I have to agree with the bed leveling on the BB, to me at least feel like more hassle then it should be. Also there is no thorough guide to getting the bed nearly perfectly level?. I know that some are using leveling gauges as compliments and manually adjust the height of the bed with shims so i think i will try move in this direction.
     
  3. Tom De Bie

    Tom De Bie Well-Known Member

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    This kind of offset is only posible when using only one printhead. If you have two printheads both have to be the same hight as each other. Even a mismatch of 0.05mm is asking for problems...
    That being said ABL or MBL are both still useable just to get rid of the smallest misalignments.
     
  4. Archania

    Archania Well-Known Member

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    I just changed the rc6 firmware to the manual bed leveling. For the life of me, I just couldn't do the auto leveling.
    At work and do t have the link but if you do a search you'll find the link to it.
     
  5. mike01hu

    mike01hu Well-Known Member

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    MBL on the BB is giving me the best first layers and hence success rates I have had for years. I have said elsewhere on the forum how important it is to get level and MBL is excellent and reliable provided you do it regularly, as level can change from day to day for a variety of reasons. I use a 0.02mm or 0.03mm feeler gauge for the levelling process so that I do not have to make any Z-offset adjustment. I agree that getting both nozzles equal is a pain with the squishy O-rings but it is achievable and I heat both nozzles so that any minor clash is ironed out by the unused nozzle,
     
    #5 mike01hu, Jun 29, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2016
  6. Old_Tafr

    Old_Tafr Well-Known Member

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    I agree there isn't enough information from e3d about getting the bed nearly level, especially as part of the present process is to turn the lead screws by hand which ruins everything, but this post has some possible approaches...

    https://forum.e3d-online.com/index.php?threads/bed-tramming.1652/#post-18116
     
  7. PsyVision

    PsyVision Moderator
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    I can't say I've ever had problems with getting it level. Mesh bed levelling is wonderful. I don't even bother running it everyday, if it is a little out then I just adjust the Z using babystepping whilst it is doing the skirt.
     
  8. rdahm

    rdahm Member

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    I have to level my flashforge once every couple-dozen-prints. I have to level this thing every time I run it or every other day because it will constantly auto-level itself too high or right into the build plate. And Tom De Bie, I have a single nozzle extruder so that would be fine with me.

    mike01hu don't get me wrong, when i get it level the adhesion is great, but even touching the bed will throw it out of level due to it's size. The motion mechanics are designed O-K, but the machine could have shipped with a less terrible firmware off the bat and there are some pretty obvious physical modifications I wish I could have made during assembly

    I'm going to tear-apart my optical sensor mount next week when I take the machine offline and try the mesh leveling as recommended by Greg, but I am about to just sell this thing and buy something with better, real support. Honestly, I have simple 3-point, knob leveling on my flashforge and it's really easy to do. This "autolevel" requires me to tweak it every. single. time.
     
  9. fpex

    fpex Well-Known Member

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    Just switch to MBL and use a caliper to make sure the size are at the same distance.
    I even go a step extra and use washers at the angles to compensate for a slightly tile towards the back left corner.

    Next step is t move the sensor to the bed and eventually replace it with an end stop (with proper tenable mount).
     
  10. Tom De Bie

    Tom De Bie Well-Known Member

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    The 'firmware' as you call it is already as mature as it gets. Granted this is not the doing of the people of E3D but rather an entire group of open minded open sourced kind of people.
    This firmware is used in so many machines with loads of varying degrees of succes.
    I for one use it on my Prusa i3 and after loads of fine tuning (read: calibrating) in the beginning I'm very satisfied with it.

    I'll tell you a secret... once you got the printer calibrated and no printer is the same even two printers of the same type and model then your succes in printing lies in the use of the slicer (ie. Simplify3d, Slic3r, and so on)
    You have to tune the settings of your slicer to the type and brand of filament your using and save those settings. If you change the brand, type or even the color you have to fiddle arround with the settings of your slicer. Not the firmware of your machine. This last one only interprets the commands issued by the slicer and not the other way arround ;)
     
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  11. Liam Woinson

    Liam Woinson Member

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    Personally I think the optical sensor is not reliable. I have been fighting with the bed leveling since I built my Dual. I am really thinking of looking in to going down the mechanical leveling
     
  12. fpex

    fpex Well-Known Member

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    I am also evaluating few alternatives .... even if making my BB Iron Men like has not got my full attention over more useful mods :)
     
  13. hammy

    hammy Well-Known Member

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    So why the heck did they switch to optical. Also is their a way to switch it to the original way of doing it?
     
  14. fpex

    fpex Well-Known Member

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    Because it works ok, but sometimes it just decides not to work well with a bed or a tape and it is small and easier than a mechanical probe not the head.
     
  15. Alex9779

    Alex9779 Moderator
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    The IR was a stretch goal of the campaign.
    I don't know the exact decision background but a contact less probe on the head has several advantages to tram/level the bed.
    You can automate the process to probe multiple points while it is completely fixed on the head keeping the distances constant AND it works with the glass...
    The first design was based on a deployable mechanical switch. The switch would be reliable, those are used for the XY end stops too, but I think the deployment is not exact enough. The distance between nozzle and probe has to be fixed and maybe this was not the case.
    Greg released the design to mount the sensor on the bed later and trigger to the frame. You could also just use a switch with the design and voilá you have a full mechanical Z endstop.
    But this will block your way to a fully automated leveling. If you are not interested in that, I for myself am thinking about it, I think it is interesting but I am not sure if it is really needed to level the bed before each print, you can go that way. So a lot of so called high-end machines do it...
    I just can compare with my UM2 which has just a Z+ switch endstop and I leveled it half a year ago I think and two weeks ago when I changed to the PEI plate... So I am still thinking of just orbiting the bed sensor mount, design a mount for the switch, not the IR, and use this...
     
  16. fpex

    fpex Well-Known Member

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    I am with Alex. I have ordered a few inductive sensors to play with, but if David (the maker of the sensor) doe snot manage to help me get the IR work with the ALU bed and the inductive fail. I will simply move the IR sensor (or end stop) to the bed.
    I wish I could have the time to reverse engineer the dual head of my FelixPro1 and put it on the BB, but honestly I now want the printer to print a bit before any major mod.
     
  17. Henry feldman

    Henry feldman Well-Known Member

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    I have to say I end up releveling the big box frequently. Not sure why, but I suspect some play/flexibility in some mounting point, particularly every time I take the glass off to switch to a different coated glass (or wash/reapply the wolfbites) I find it is just not perfect, and this box seems very sensitive to not perfect.

    Now contrast that with the Taz6 in my lab, which works like an office laser printer. I just print to it. It self levels and reliably prints. Easy, and my coworkers would never tolerate the paper sliding under the nozzle thing. Sure it's only 4 points of level (I do love the little wiper thingy) but it works.

    Now comparing the output, when the BB is dialed in, it's a better print, but way, way more work to keep dialed in.
     
  18. hammy

    hammy Well-Known Member

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    But I thought one of the items that they boast is self leveling, so its not self leveling?
     
  19. fpex

    fpex Well-Known Member

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    I have two machines only with IR.

    One uses ABL and I need to run the ABL every print and also keep an eye on it. However, I placed it is a more controlled lighting condition and it uses white stickers for reflection giving good results if the ABL is run with warm bed and hot end. And I now see that calibration is needed once in a while.

    The second one (the BB) is an a place where sometimes the sun shines partially and ABL is never reliable. So o switched to MBL. I use also a glass bed meaning that the initial homing is messed up less frequently. I need to re calibrate every few prints while with the alu bed after every print.

    All in all both show me IR is not a viable solution, but MBL is. It works wonders!
    And this is why during the campaign I asked for a end stop option, but it never came.
     
  20. Alex9779

    Alex9779 Moderator
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    Well same for my UM2, but the passed half a year I had some glue stick coating which was having such a nice adhesion to everything I printed that I didn't have to put the bed out.

    If I do anything bed related, remove/switch plate, sticky part I have to knock of, accidentally turning the lead screw(s), then I relevel.

    To emphasise why the IR was chosen I think the glass plate was set and there are no alternatives yet for contactless probing of a glass plate without additional actions, like metal coating in some spots and use the "nozzle-contact" method or something else...

    Using an aluminium plate opens the use of inductive probes. This will be an "easy" switch, just need some resistors to pull down the signal voltage to something in between 5 and 3 Volts.

    And again if you wanna go full mechanical Z- endstop switch just use "Z Drive IR Bracket" from http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1531536 and model your own mount for a mechanical switch, maybe base on the available mount...
     

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