Noise

Discussion in 'Motion System' started by twam, Dec 22, 2019.

  1. Rob Heinzonly

    Rob Heinzonly Well-Known Member

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    @mkudzia : Sorry for the late reply. I did not replace the stepper motors or changed any other settings on the printer. I only decreased the current on the XY steppers.
     
  2. Nibbels

    Nibbels Well-Known Member

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    I printed alot with the silent power supply. It normally is at around 30-40°C at 22°C room temperature. I did not put a fan next to it, only the normal convection is exchanging the air around. So the Meanwell stays, I love it!

    I will now switch out the TitanAero 40mm fans for noctua A4-10 ones.
    Did anyone use Z-diodes to pull down the voltage? Else I might just use a resistor.
     
  3. mebrein

    mebrein Member

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    Same over here. I print with 2 Hemera tools, it's hand warm, happy camper. Will watch it coming weeks, especially during summer where the printing area will become 30 degrees celsius.

    I got the Delta electronics brushless ASB0405HHA from a friend. Less ticking sound of the bearrings when the head moves. Not as silent as the noctua's however more/better movement of air thus less heat creap. This fan is mounted on my Mk3s.Currently I run Hemera's with default fan from E3D it's fine for me.
     
  4. Nibbels

    Nibbels Well-Known Member

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    I got the Noctuas today. I brainless) connected them to 24V because I was tired and didn't want to accept that.
    And I did not see it at first because they run quieter and smooth. The speed and noise and airflow @24V was quieter than the Xinyujie XYJ24B4010M I got bundled with the titan aeros.
    I started to sweat when I recognized the mistake. This is not recommended by several sources. And I would not trust the fan to run through a night until Noctua tells me thats ok.

    So I added the Low-Noise-Adapter. It has 100Ohms. Thus 100Ohms cap 1/3 of the voltage because the Fan is rated at 12V/0.06A=200 "fan"-Ohms.
    The noise dropped. The air flow dropped.
    https://linustechtips.com/main/topi...-fan-out-there/?tab=comments#comment-12286332
    There is one unknown person who states this will be ok for 24V. It might be.

    Then I fetched 2x 470Ohms and added them parallel =235Ohms into the fans cable. That should result in ~12V at the fan.
    The fans are now so quiet that the steppers are clearly audible. But the airflow is lower as well.
    That results in a bit more temperature at the TitanAeros cooler. They feel warm when the hotend is running.

    Rightnow I print PETG.
    I watched the tools for 2 hours now and the tiny bit more heat does not seem to be a problem. I will report back If I see a problem in future.
     
    mebrein likes this.
  5. W1EBR.Gene

    W1EBR.Gene Well-Known Member

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    Has anyone used the anti-vibration mounts for the steppers? I am wondering if it would quiet the stepper even when they aren't moving but not yet in idle state
     
  6. Rene

    Rene Active Member

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    Depending on what tools you want to use, I highly recommend, to use a passive power supply, likethe meanwell HLG-line. For example the Meanwell HLG-480H-24A, 24 Volt, 20 Ampere, 480W

    I am using this from day 1 on my beta30 machine and never had an issue whatsoever...
     
  7. W1EBR.Gene

    W1EBR.Gene Well-Known Member

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    I can feel the discrete steps (from the stepper motors, I think) when I move the toolhead by hand. Moving it a little faster definitely cause a "note". Do others feel tiny discrete steps if they move their carriage by hand?

    @Greg Holloway, is this normal?
     
  8. dc42

    dc42 Well-Known Member

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    This is normal, it's caused by the detent torque of the stepper motors.
     
  9. twam

    twam Active Member

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  10. W1EBR.Gene

    W1EBR.Gene Well-Known Member

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    @twam , the Thingiverse link doesn't work.
     
  11. twam

    twam Active Member

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    Please try again. For whatever reason it was marked as 'not published'. :(
     
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  12. W1EBR.Gene

    W1EBR.Gene Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, it works for me now!
     
  13. garethky

    garethky Well-Known Member

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    I finally got fed up and swapped the steppers on my tool changer. I used 2 of the steppers I had from the original E3D bowden tooling because I had them on-hand.

    The stock Moons steppers are 1.8 degree per step. The "E3D Compact but Powerful Motor" steppers are 0.9 degree steppers. This doubles the effective steps being executed per second and changes the frequency of sound that the machine emits. Higher frequencies don't carry as far and are less objectionable. It also seems to get away from the 50hz resonance frequency of the frame.

    It's made a huge difference in my machine. I already had the motor current lowered and all of the tricks turned on in the Trinamic drivers before this. It's not a Prusa, but I'm sitting next to it right now and its not "objectionable" anymore. I'm going to also try some larger LDO 0.9 degree motors, the same ones used on the Rail Core. The two printers are mechanically similar so it should be a good fit.

    Edit: I had a gantry/tension issues that caused the lost steps. I'm running at 600 mm/sec loaded with a tool in D3/stealth mode, no problem now.
     
    #33 garethky, Jan 5, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2021
  14. garethky

    garethky Well-Known Member

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    I had a breakthrough with StealthChop, see this thread.

    Basically I have been using the StealthChop setting but the driver was never auto tuned correctly. I bet most of you have never actually had it working correctly either. It requires that the motors get shut off, Cool Step gets disabled, then there is a specific move sequence that "teaches" the drivers about the motors. The moves have to be at full power and at a good speed, so if you use the default sensorless homing as the first move, you never get auto tuning.

    You can check by running M569 P0 and look at the pwmGradAuto value. If it is 0 you haven't auto-tuned and you are not getting the benefits of StealthChop. Its a pretty big difference when it is tuned in.

    There are some down sides though; I've had to limit the top speed to150mm/sec, above that is screeches. I went back to the 1.8 degree motors because I got higher speeds in StealthChop mode vs the 0.9's. But the 1.8 motors have brought back the low frequency "rumble" we have all heard. Sadly, StealthChop does not improve on that.
     
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  15. garethky

    garethky Well-Known Member

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    I got the StepperOnline 17HS19-2004S1 this is the spec motor for the Voron 2 build, and I guessed that they have a larger community than us so they might know what to use. Well, the motor is a big improvement, particularly in Spread Cycle mode. If you have a Duet 2 and cant run Stealth Chop this is worth trying out. It doesn't hurt that they are super cheap.

    The low frequency rumble is very much reduced as well as the vibrations I was was getting at higher speeds. They are staying on my machine.
     
  16. W1EBR.Gene

    W1EBR.Gene Well-Known Member

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    @Greg Holloway , you did research on stepper motors. What criteria made you decide on the Moons' steppers?
     
  17. Greg Holloway

    Greg Holloway Administrator
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    The low induction.
     
  18. garethky

    garethky Well-Known Member

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    This motor has a higher inductance of 3mH. I think the stock motor was between 1 and 2mH (cant find the part number right now). I don't think that difference is significant.

    I have no explanation for why the stock motor adds the vibrations. I really wish I understood that better so I could maybe select an even quieter motor.
     
  19. W1EBR.Gene

    W1EBR.Gene Well-Known Member

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    Here is what I found doing a Google search. I don't know if it is correct but if it is, then the difference in inductance (with all other things equal) makes a difference at low rpms.

    A typical hybrid step motor is a fourth-order non-linear system. With an operating point near zero angular velocity, the system is like a mass/spring/damper where the mass is the inertial load, the spring is the slope of the torque curve through the detent position and the damping is controlled by what is seen by the motor's back-EMF looking out of the motor. So, the damping is dependent on the inductance, the motor resistance and the effective resistance looking back into the driver.

    Better damping should mean lower rumble.

    Did you ever say what your current setting for the steppers was that you used in the config file?

    With the Moons steppers you can feel vibration and hear noise when the power is off and you move the tool head slowly as the steppers move through their discrete steps. If you compared rotating shafts of both brands of steppers by hand, I wonder if you would find that the Moons steppers feel like the stepping takes more torque and the steps feel more discrete than the other steppers?
     
  20. garethky

    garethky Well-Known Member

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    I tried them at the same stock 80% current (1.6A). But then I noticed that the Voron community is running them at 0.8A. Less current generally produces less noise. I think higher torque means we can de-rate them more than the stock motors. I haven't done any long term testing to try and find the minimum but I'm trying 1A now and it seems fine.
     
    #40 garethky, Feb 24, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2021

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