SpoolWorks ABS red27 'Phonebox' Printing tips???

Discussion in 'Filament' started by Jasons_BigBox, Oct 2, 2016.

  1. Jasons_BigBox

    Jasons_BigBox Well-Known Member

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    Well, I'm having all kinds of issues with this material.




    Not least is that the box says 210-220°C / 60°C yet the E3D website says 240°/ 120°C !?!




    Does anyone have any settings that work?




    I'm trying to make two parts that screw together the bolt is quite long but 12mm diameter. I tried to print something similar vertically but the slight sag on the thread meant it wouldn't go together. I'm trying to print the part horizontally but the print is all over the place. The warping is lifting the S3D supports off the bed and even using a raft, the warp is enough to pull the support off the raft.








    One odd thing I noticed, I printed the part alongside another couple of bits that didn't have a raft or support and S3D prints the raft completely up to 2mm thick then goes and prints the other parts up to the same height before coming back and starting the supports for the threaded part. Has the raft cooled too much to bond the support to it properly? On the photo above, the end has lifted off the support but later it came off the raft with the support.




    I'm going to try again later with twice the width of supports (maybe the full width of the part) to attempt to hold it all down but some clearer temperature advice would be nice.







    Thanks







    Jason
     

    Attached Files:

  2. GeckoBox3D

    GeckoBox3D Well-Known Member

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    Sufficiently cooling a part should not effect adhesion too much, the theory usually goes that the next layer should have sufficient heat to re-melt the layer below for good layer adhesion, hence why upping the temps of filament by even 5-10c helps a lot.

    It's most likely your first layer. This is crucial in getting warp free prints. each line of plastic on the first layer should not 'merge' into the next. you can usually see this after printing. Too much squish, and the lines can be indistinguishable. Just a little bit of squish and the edges of the lines near perimeters will merge. You can often see if your nozzle is too close to the print bed when you use large brims, as the more lines you print, the more it starts to 'ripple' (this also shows over extrusion, a lot of this advice assumes you have your extrusion dialed in)

    On top of that, sufficient heated bed temps are a necessity. Run it very hot for the first layer, and then drop it for the 2nd or 3rd to whatever works for you. As long as it does not cause the upper layers to sag due to the heat, you can probably up the bed temps a bit.

    This is not e3d ABS specific, rather these are just the guidelines that have worked for every material I've come across. The theory is that you want to increase surface contact between the bed and material as much as physically possible. Too much/too little 'squish' (or under/over extrusion) will cause gaps, allowing warp to happen quicker. High temps on the bed and nozzle allow the plastic to become less viscous, and enter all the surface ridges / pores of your bed better.

    What do you use for your print bed? I would highly suggest a PEI based material or printbite. I've got printbite and I haven't had adhesion issues in months.

    *EDIT* thought this was for EDGE but just noticed it is for ABS. You want 120c bed temps, at least for the first layer, you may be able to drop as low as 100c. Sufficient layer cooling is a necessity for abs, especially since active cooling with a fan is a definite no (unless for weird bridging / overhangs only). First layer adhesion is extremely important with ABS, much more so then with PLA. You may want to consider enclosing the printer, and make sure there are no drafts whatsoever. Even a slight breeze can cause loss of temps, and then inevitable warping.
     
    #2 GeckoBox3D, Oct 3, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2016
  3. Jasons_BigBox

    Jasons_BigBox Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Gecko,

    This material is really driving me mad. I've had more jams and extruder grinding than ever before. I thought it might have been an extruder temperature issue so have turned that up to 230°C but it's just chewed through again and I can't get the filament out so I need to dismantle the Titan and hotend again!. Attached are some better photos of one of the parts. The photo is in the orientation it was printed. I can't print it vertically as the threads sag and one of the parts is 12mm diameter and 150mm long so it wouldn't be too stable.

    2.jpg 1.jpg

    As you can see, printing a cylinder on it's side, some form of support is needed to hold it down but it's just not working.

    Any temperature advice would be greatly appreciated as I've tried allsorts of combinations now and I'm getting very poor quality on lower layers which seems to improve as the print continues.

    Right, off to dismantle everything...................... :(
     
  4. GeckoBox3D

    GeckoBox3D Well-Known Member

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    That poor layer quality will be tricky to fix.

    ABS does not deal well with overhangs greater then 45 degrees. PLA would have coped as you can actively cool it. you can set a minimum layer time, or print multiple objects so that the plastic has time to cool itself before the nozzle returns, but these overhangs tend to curl and this won't be fixed until the overhang ends (mid way up the cylinder). The heated bed does not help with this, as it takes significantly longer to dissipate the heat from the printed part close to the bed. So, the options are to either go for an overkill adhesion method (ABS slurry) and drop the heat to below 80c, or attempt to use small amounts of active fan cooling. Both methods are horrible in my opinion as ABS slurry is a glass print bed killer, and active cooling ruins layer adhesion in ABS.

    Next up, is you've essentially designed a warpinator 5000. Small surface contact area, with large pulling forces as the piece contracts further up due to the increasing diameter.

    My suggestion? You're gonna have to redesign it. I would suggest screw threads similar to a ball screw, where the inner diameter of the helix is curved. This means the printer can deal with the overhang without the need for support and you can print it upright. You'll notice screw designs on thingiverse often have triangle shaped threads or ball shaped threads instead of square profile threads like yours. Printing it upright will mean less warping and contracting forces.
     
  5. Jasons_BigBox

    Jasons_BigBox Well-Known Member

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    Thanks again,

    Yes, triangular threads may be the best way for that part but they're harder to get the tolerances right on the fit. The long thin part will still be a problem though. I might have print this mechanism in PLA after all.

    I want to print a few smaller parts in red for a friend and the ABS is the only roll I have in that colour unfortunately. These small parts aren't as complex but are printing poorly for the first 5mm or so.......

    I'm going back to PLA for a couple of days to try to regain my faith in my own abilities to sort it out!
     
  6. PsyVision

    PsyVision Moderator
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    Could you cut it in half and print the two halves, that way you get better bed adhesion and no overhangs. You can then glue the two halves as a post-process.
     
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  7. Jasons_BigBox

    Jasons_BigBox Well-Known Member

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    Yes, maybe the best way in the end. I'll try it in PLA too.

    It'd be nice if someone can advise on the temperatures too.


    Thanks

    J
     
  8. PsyVision

    PsyVision Moderator
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    I'd go by what's on their website as 240 / 120 sounds much more normal ABS temps. The others are PLA temps.
     
  9. Jasons_BigBox

    Jasons_BigBox Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, yes that 's what I thought.

    The whole thing's confused, the roll says it's `Edge` but the box has a note on it saying it's ABS due to a misprint on the roll. Nothing about the temperature sticker on the box being wrong though.


    All very confusing!
     
  10. Jasons_BigBox

    Jasons_BigBox Well-Known Member

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    Can anyone confirm the temperatures to use?
     
  11. GeckoBox3D

    GeckoBox3D Well-Known Member

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    ABS is always 100c+ bed and 230c+ nozzle. If you have ABS, that's where to start experimenting. Temperature sensors can often be inaccurate by +/-20c and more and we don't know your set up. Either way, that's your ball park. The aim of the game with ABS is to stop warping and that requires keeping ABS as close to its glass transition point as possible across the entire print. Hence the high bed temps. Almost all ABS problems go away when you get a heated enclosure.
     
  12. Jasons_BigBox

    Jasons_BigBox Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, I've read about people enclosing their machines but have concerns about overheating of components.

    I've a BigBox 1.1 Pro with Titan btw.
     
  13. GeckoBox3D

    GeckoBox3D Well-Known Member

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    The reason I say we don't know your set up, is even 'identical' machines have different temp settings due to the difficulties with setting up temp sensors, one may be secured better and have better surface area contact etc...

    As for enclosing, the main thing to worry about is your steppers motors and electronics board. I'm not sure how insulated the electronics board is from the main enclosure in a big box, but a decent fan should be sufficient to cool it.

    Stepper motors can run at very high temp, and can often run at 80c+ before missing steps. This can have adverse effects on the life span of the motor though. When I heated my enclosure, the only issue I had was my Z motors skipping steps, but I had two 2a motors wired in Parallel off one driver. So the combination of heat and low current pushed them too far and they missed steps. I fixed this by using one motor with a closed loop belt to run both z axis screws. Best upgrade I ever made.
     

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