Usa?

Discussion in 'BigBox General Chat' started by Tripp, Feb 3, 2016.

  1. Trevor

    Trevor Well-Known Member

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    Post 16 i asked you to name one. And you now give me names of 2 kickstarter AIO and claim those are good at each of it's functions? I think I'm done trying to converse with a child.
     
  2. Tripp

    Tripp Well-Known Member

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    Actually, the second one has been out for a while... so yeah. Also, the boxzy has shiped quite a few. Just because you google it and the first link that pops up is kickstarter, doesn't mean it isn't old... idiot. Lastly, this is a brand new field. To say they won't ever be good is absurd, which was what you were trying to say.
     
    #22 Tripp, Feb 5, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2016
  3. Miasmictruth

    Miasmictruth Well-Known Member

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    I would say look at the mostly printed cnc, its not a kit, you will have to work at it a little bit you can buy all the parts for around 500ish I think. There are people who have designed attachments for milling printing and lasering

    http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:724999

    If you cant print itnor don't have a friend with a printer you can buy the parts.

    It's not going to be the top quality but I think it will take you where you want to go.
     
  4. Dr Jeep

    Dr Jeep Well-Known Member

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    Crumbs Tripp you do like to pull people's chains on here don't you, that was unprovoked. I'm still undecided whether you or a troll or not so one last attempt to keep a thread with you in it sensible....

    The problem with AIO is kinda twofold...one milling/engraving/cutting stuff is so very messy and printing stuff needs to be kept clean (otherwise you get swarf from the last milling job mixed in with the print), so the clean down after just becomes a major pain.

    The other problem is that milling needs more torque in the xy and z axis and heavier motion components to take it...moving weight reduces print speed in a printer. Really a good milling system would use direct or screw drive on all axis, but that doesn't really work so well on a faster moving axis you need in printing.

    So yeh it can be done but it's one hell of a compromise and I think ultimately you'll always end up with a machine that does neither job that well. Have a look at some of the projects out there for diy CNC stuff, some of them look really awesome if you have the space.
     
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  5. Trevor

    Trevor Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, Dr Jeep for actually comprehending a discussion properly. The two AIO Tripp mentioned, even though is out of their fully funded campaign phase, likely doesn’t function well in all its operations. And of course still hasn’t solved the problem of maintaining electronics and other components clean for multiple functions. He still has yet to name an actual good AIO. If there truly is a good AIO at a reasonable price that compares to the price and quality of multiple machines, I’d would like to know because I would be truly interested. There’s a reason why we haven’t seen much footage on the boxzy and stepcraft (users 3d printing) because there’s little success to show from those machines. I would bet the reason is because they don’t function well at a high standard. There are companies creating consumer grade CNC such as the ShopBot and the Inventables (X-Carve and Carvey) who know better to keep 3d printing and CNC milling separately, and those are the companies who are succeeding. You can actually find videos of their machines in action by many users. There is good reason those two companies have been around for a while and with brand recognition. My statement still stands. The AIO I’ve see thus far are gimmicks and no enthusiast would be happy with their operation and precision. I have not seen an AIO that consist of CNC mill/laser/3dprinting/etc that performs up to standards. Would a screw driver in a swiss army knife ever be as good as a standalone screwdriver? That’s where we stand at this point with AIO machines. I never said anything about companies not trying to solve the problem of creating a motion system, cleaning, quality components, etc. It’s quite a task to fulfill, and I don't think it is makes good business sense to do so. The cost of producing such a machine would result in a retail price that would be too high and the business would go down quick from limited sales. You’d really be better off buying separate machines. I still can’t find where I mentioned anything about the world needs to stop innovating and looking to solve the problem. Seems to be words Tripp making up to make himself feel justified. It’s quite an impossible task to hold a sensible discussion when people lack the maturity.
     
    #25 Trevor, Feb 6, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2016
  6. Henry feldman

    Henry feldman Well-Known Member

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    While I can certainly believe a laser cutter and 3D printer could be combined, not sure why you'd want to. Issues I see are that Laser cutters work best with downdraft ventilation while many filament based plastic extruders don't want that kind of ventilation, you could make some weird hybrid ventilation system, but seems a lot of work. Second the bed would have to be weirdly porous and smooth at the same time? Not sure how you could optimize these? But sure I can believe you could move a laser successfully on the gantry of a 3D printer effectively. The issue for 3D printing is heat management (e.g. keeping your plastic at the right temperature for flowing then cooling based on the plastic type) while on a laser cutter you are just trying to prevent the house form burning down and keep the smoke from distorting the beam/depositing crap on the lens.

    But a CNC milling machine (for those of us who own one - I have an X-carve) is a giant particulate making machine. If you go on the inventibles forums you see a huge percentage of the discussion is on dust shoes and dust collection. This is not a little bit of dust, but giant, huge, enormous piles of it. This is people worrying about shopvacs burning out kind of dust collection issues. The stuff is often static clingy if you are milling anything other than wood (and even then) but since all the equipment is big and bulky and tough it pushes through it. Sort of the opposite of tweaky fine control 3D printers, who use linear bearings, etc which don't like piles of dust. Now of course when you talk about milling hard stuff (metals) you are talking a way, way bulkier and heavy machine where weight is a feature not a problem (yes, my x-carve can mill some aluminum but again the chip management is really tough), and even the baby Tormach is like 200+kg for just the mill and puts out 1800W. Of course when milling metals (and some plastics) you need a chip blower (sounds like a disaster to enclose inside a 3D printer) which uses high pressure air to blast chips away from the end mill to prevent chip-weld, and trust me they go everywhere.

    Just like the terrefuego seems a reasonable flying car, even a cheap hyundai is a better car and a 1970s cessna is a better plane, but sure if you absolutely must be able to drive away from your landing site without renting a car, then it does solve that problem.
     
  7. Dr Jeep

    Dr Jeep Well-Known Member

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    Actually yes expanding Henry's point, Aside from the compromises you get at a machine level I am not sure I want the laser cutting or milling processes even in the same room as my 3D printing, let alone on the same machine :)

    My 3D printer lives in a nice dry, heated workshop/man cave at the bottom of the garden. With an electronics bench and an IT bench/Home Office. Messy beasts like what Henry describes can damn well go in the garage.
     
  8. Trevor

    Trevor Well-Known Member

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    You're absolutely right Henry. A honeycomb or slatted platform is ideal for laser cutting. That laser wants to burn through everything and needs those cavities for heat to dissipate away. Over time that platform itself will need replacing as it wears down from the laser cutting into it. You would definitely want some kind of interchangeable platform if you were to mix the two operations.
     
    #28 Trevor, Feb 6, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2016
  9. Dr Jeep

    Dr Jeep Well-Known Member

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    Well to be fair a mirror bed and lasers would be entertaining if nothing else
     
  10. Henry feldman

    Henry feldman Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I bought the GlowForge which has that. According to them with a laser in the 40-45W range, it won't hurt the grid (now that is separate from all the crap that builds up on it - which may corrode it!)
     
  11. Henry feldman

    Henry feldman Well-Known Member

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    I decided both for cleanliness of the printer and safety of the family (being a doc, and reading the articles on micorparticles, etc - cringe) I decided to get an enclosure with filtration (Went with the pricey 3DPrintClean) which also makes it quiet, but also equally important has pre-heaters to get the whole box up to temp quickly when I am printing things that need heating. The CNC is in a another room and is hooked up to the shop vac for just this reason.

    BTW: I got slightly beat up the first time I brought up toxicity, as if this was anti-3D printing. I love 3D printing, and heck I am currently developing a novel filament for some medical uses, but ya know, I do it under a hood. Just like I love using my Husqvarna chain saw, but I wear kevlar chaps, steal toed shoes, helmet with ear/face shield, etc...
     
  12. Dr Jeep

    Dr Jeep Well-Known Member

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    Yes I saw your other posts on toxicity, I seek a bit of comfort in the fact that generally the printer is in there printing when I am not working in there (which I know brings another set of hazards but at least it is to property rather than health) mostly because the noise is distracting rather than any health concerns, but I took your comments on-board (particularly with stuff at a higher melting point, I somehow feel pretty safe being in there when PLA is being used..ABS not so)

    My father also suffered parkinsons quite badly, and in recent years (after his death) I have heard that exposure to TCE can significantly increase the chances..he worked in a industry that used it as a solvent and used to get covered in the stuff. So I take what I am exposing myself to fairly seriously these days :)
     
  13. Henry feldman

    Henry feldman Well-Known Member

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    Actually I plan to add their automatic fire extinguisher once it ships. It is self contained so would work on any box you put the printer in (a thermal trigger like a sprinkler head).

    Hear you on the parent, my mother has PD also, and was an artist for many years (can still sketch but can't really do paintings any more) so was exposed to lots of solvents (I remember the 1gal jug of turpentine on the bench next to the easel) and heavy metals in the paints
     
  14. R Design

    R Design Well-Known Member

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    @Henry feldman developing a filament? What equipment do you need to do that? An extruder? Some raw materials? Glass mixing vessels & a bunsen burner?!!!
     
  15. Henry feldman

    Henry feldman Well-Known Member

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    OK, let me start out with the first attempt was somewhat cringe worthy (I would suggest not drinking any fluids during this tale to prevent spit-takes). Not used to doing this, I just approached it like any other lab experiment (which to be honest I normally have other people who actually know what they are doing, do for me - but I'm a scientist damnit!) and did this in one of the labs at the hospital. I went under one of the hoods and used a bunsen burner to heat up the PLA (the base) using a bunsen burner and started adding our additives in a crucible. Kids, do not attempt this at home... I then attempted to comically fold in my additives using a lab spatula. Mostly I spent the time both attempting to keep the PLA from burning (somewhat successful) where the burner hit the crucible and mostly trying to not burn off all the flesh on my hands from the insanely hot and sticky mess. The PLA only turned to a chewing gum consistency so it was insanely hard to fold in evenly without it immediately hardening to a blob on the stainless lab spatula. Oh wait, I forgot to mention I didn't even have pellets (this was just a proof of concept - mostly testing just the additives) so I cut raw PLA filament with a pair of lab shears - hahaha don't do that (at least I had a face shield on) since it works about as well as cutting spaghetti with scissors out of the box. Amazing how far across the lab each piece shot! Fun gathering all that up!

    So, despite destroying the crucible, spatula and generating a lot of smoke, the additives actually performed better than we hoped. This was mostly to convince the company I am working with that it will work, so cheesy was ok. They laughed hearing about all the above. Now I am using a temperature controlled heating plate with non-contact temperature monitoring, kevlar insulated hand protection, pellets, etc. One challenge I have is PLA cools pretty quickly but our hoods are super powerful in a bio lab to prevent organisms from escaping. May have to figure out a box around the crucible to just keep the breeze down.

    The end result looks like crap (literally) but actually proved the point (the smeared shape while mostly because that was all I could do with the spatula, actually mimicked the shape I needed so that worked out well). For the next phase first we will just mold it into discs that we can again do more formalized testing on mechanically, then the company I am working with will extrude so we can make sure it will print.

    [​IMG]
     
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  16. Tripp

    Tripp Well-Known Member

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    No offense, but you don't know the whole story at all. We have been arguing between two different posts. He started this, not me. I posted that after we had gone back and forth in another post, so no offense, but you really don't know what you're talking about.

    Concerning the all in one, I came here because I honestly wanted to hear your opinions on the future of AIO, not the current market. I'm well aware of the current state, especially since it's brand new. I didn't want some jackass who doesn't have a clue and talks down anything other than the printer he paid for like a child. I didn't want anyone's opinions on mechanics. I understand it and all I really want a CNC for is light mill work on wood and foam, which even a belt driven 3d printer could handle. I understand the mechanics of 3d printers, as well as CNC machines. I really didn't come here to ask any of those questions, but I am quite sick of being berated by people who don't even understand what's going on.

    As far as the continued attempt to peg me as a troll, it's quite obvious that I'm not, as a troll wouldn't actually give a shit. If you actually read my posts, it should be quite clear. At this point, I'm probably not going to get a BigBox for the childishness in this forum alone. I've never met such children who can't handle talking good about anything but their particular product. It's really nothing but a fan club in here. I wanted people's opinions here because I was currently looking at the BigBox and wrongly thought this would be a good place to discuss current forms of printing. I was wrong (I will say there have been a couple very reasonable exceptions here).
     
    #36 Tripp, Feb 7, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2016
  17. Tripp

    Tripp Well-Known Member

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    I do love how you took his ignorance of the entire conversation to make yourself out to be the nice guy here when you were the one who provoked this entire thing. Also, the reason you haven't seen much footage is because it hasn't come out yet and once again, I know what I need it for, and I understand mechanics well enough to understand it's ability. I was also discussing the future of AIO machines, not their current state, hence why I'm here, but you may continue straw man arguing your way around here. Oh, and by many of your remarks, it's quite clear that you're a liar when you stated you work with CNC machines.
     
  18. Trevor

    Trevor Well-Known Member

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    You really are ignorant of your own words huh? All the history of the coversations are there for all to see, so no need to fabricate new excuses for your adolecent behavior. Please go buy your metal framed Wanhao i3 that you wanted so much and leave this forum back in peace.
     
  19. Tripp

    Tripp Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm... Let's see. I stated that a $400 Wanhao i3 has a metal frame and that means I want one? Wow, those assumptions are just great aren't they? And all the blanket statements, coupled with the ad hominems with no real argument. You're getting great at this. I'm proud of you. Capable of writing so much without saying anything. And I thought you were done? You really love talking about me. I leave for just a couple days and when I come back, you've been talking all about me. It's so nice of you :)
     
  20. R Design

    R Design Well-Known Member

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    @Henry feldman that's amazing! And does indeed look like something that came out from a laboratory fume cupboard. I guess if it's for medical use then many years of testing and certification lie ahead?

    Since the whole thing is happening at PLA melting temperatures and since we happen to have the founder of Filastruder in the google group, did you consider asking him about his machine? It obviously has a melt chamber and perhaps there's a way - even just in software - of holding the plastic in the chamber for long enough for mixing to take place? Or perhaps he could suggest a simple modification to the device?

    If not there's the Protocycler in process of launch right now which is designed for recycling plastic and to allow the possibility of re-colouring that plastic after melt....
     

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